UK home secretary Rudd says she will ‘flush out’ employers that don’t hire locally

spiralism

Harvey Normal wrote: »

James O'Brien does like to Godwin the arguments.

Of course hitler did say he would make a distinction between citizen labour and non citizen labour. This distinction is true of every single sovereign nation.. The EU is a strange case, in fact, as it prohibits this distinction.

Controlling borders isn't what Hitler is remembered for, not respecting borders is what he is remembered for.

Mass genocide is what he's remembered for and he's drawing a paralell to one of his stated beliefs to what's going on now. I get that it's tiresome to apply the Nazi analogy as often as the internet does as a whole but this is a pretty clear similarity.

JJEire

"I'd wonder how many will be students that can work the seasonal hours, as they'll be on holidays?"

RTE do a segment on the numbers queueing up for the positions each year. Seems that those they interview are Irish unemployed. Oh, and they're full time positions and students tend to be in college in the run up to Christmas.

But keep pushing the lazy Irish meme when it's statistically proven that non Irish are much more reliant on state support.

VinLieger

Can anyone actually defend this? http://www.thejournal.ie/brexit-academics-non-uk-advice-3015903-Oct2016/

Can we all just agree they are Nazi's now? Weve been tip toeing around it but..... come one

JJEire

It's a national security issue. I wouldn't want non Irish citizens working on highly sensitive governmental dealings. It's the norm around the world.

VinLieger

JJEire wrote: »

It's a national security issue. I wouldn't want non Irish citizens working on highly sensitive governmental dealings. It's the norm around the world.

So the US ambassdor to the UN wasnt born in Ireland?

CMOTDibbler

VinLieger wrote: »

Can anyone actually defend this? http://www.thejournal.ie/brexit-academics-non-uk-advice-3015903-Oct2016/

Can we all just agree they are Nazi's now? Weve been tip toeing around it but..... come one

Ah, that's probably just paranoia. Johnny Furrener will just give us bad advice so his country can screw us.

Grayson

JJEire wrote: »

It's a national security issue. I wouldn't want non Irish citizens working on highly sensitive governmental dealings. It's the norm around the world.

It's not a national security issue. If it was they'd have to individually be vetted and then have to sign off on the official secrets act. They're even stopping people with dual citizenship.

Pity they couldn't sack Boris for that (He's a US citizen too)

JJEire

"So the US ambassdor to the UN wasnt born in Ireland?"

She's an American citizen.

Letree

VinLieger wrote: »

Can anyone actually defend this? http://www.thejournal.ie/brexit-academics-non-uk-advice-3015903-Oct2016/

Can we all just agree they are Nazi's now? Weve been tip toeing around it but..... come one

No, no we can't. That is a ridiculous comparison. Do you remember what the nazi's did. Do you think Teresa May will be herding people into gas chambers??

VinLieger

Letree wrote: »

No, no we can't. That is a ridiculous comparison. Do you remember what the nazi's did. Do you think Teresa May will be herding people into gas chambers??

Slippery slope, very easy to from chapter 1 of mein kampf to chapter 2

hatrickpatrick

VinLieger wrote: »

Slippery slope, very easy to from chapter 1 of mein kampf to chapter 2

And this is the kind of hyperbollocks which is causing even lefties like me to abandon what is becoming of the mainstream left.

VinLieger

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And this is the kind of hyperbollocks which is causing even lefties like me to abandon what is becoming of the mainstream left.

Ahh lol I do love when people call me left, take look at my posting history

steddyeddy

I don't think it's inappropriate to compare some aspect of Nazism with what's going on now. May and her party are acting as xenophobes. No she didn't do all the Nazi party did during WW2 but neither did the Nazis at the start. I think it's fair to call out xenophobia and point out the very real historical consequences of xenophobia.

hatrickpatrick

VinLieger wrote: »

Ahh lol I do love when people call me left, take look at my posting history

Fair point. But I stand by the fact that comparing bog standard nationalism to Nazism is like comparing a house spider to a Goliath Tarantula.

VinLieger

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Fair point. But I stand by the fact that comparing bog standard nationalism to Nazism is like comparing a house spider to a Goliath Tarantula.

They have gone beyond bog standard nationalism this week, granted I'm being hyperbolic(I think in this case it's neccessary) but I disagree with equally others normalizing of their behavior too in that wau

listermint

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Fair point. But I stand by the fact that comparing bog standard nationalism to Nazism is like comparing a house spider to a Goliath Tarantula.

Its not big standard when it's sponsored by what seems all levels of government from a current member of the EU and permanent member and founding member of the UN.

There is nothing and I seriously mean nothing bog standard about this.

Its frightening and extremely concerning rethoric and should be exposed and ridiculed for what it is.

listermint

topper75 wrote: »

Sever would be insane. I think they intend to just re-negotiate, no?!

The UK will do really well in the medium term. Why? Their offerings are now suddenly more competitive in the international shop window and the cost of money for UK business people (to expand and produce more at those competitive prices) is awfully cheap in historic terms.

Add to this mix some swapping out of native dole-queuers, and you'll hear some good old fashioned Jingo from the exchequer old chap! So get the foam ear plugs in now. You should get British-made ones cheap enough on amazon.co.uk.

Clearly someone doesn't comprehend British businesses need to import their materials they arent and island of self sufficiency, one of the many reasons British business was against brexit and are now experiencing huge costs to import materials.

hatrickpatrick

VinLieger wrote: »

They have gone beyond bog standard nationalism this week, granted I'm being hyperbolic(I think in this case it's neccessary) but I disagree with equally others normalizing of their behavior too in that wau

listermint wrote: »

Its not big standard when it's sponsored by what seems all levels of government from a current member of the EU and permanent member and founding member of the UN.

There is nothing and I seriously mean nothing bog standard about this.

Its frightening and extremely concerning rethoric and should be exposed and ridiculed for what it is.

I genuinely don't see how. I'm pro-immigration and open borders but I recognise that not everyone is and that some people would prefer to see their countries resources shared only among people actually born there.

It's not a view that I agree with, but I don't understand why some people regard it as shocking. It's just another political ideology. Multiculturalism is a relatively new idea in political history, since when are people not actually allowed to disagree with it?

I just don't understand this recent extremist "anybody who doesn't favour total globalisation is a racist and should not be listened to" thing.

And again, I don't see how "hire locally" is any different to "buy locally". Both support the same end, which is putting the local community and local people first. If one is ok, so logically must the other.

steddyeddy

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I genuinely don't see how. I'm pro-immigration and open borders but I recognise that not everyone is and that some people would prefer to see their countries resources shared only among people actually born there.

It's not a view that I agree with, but I don't understand why some people regard it as shocking. It's just another political ideology. Multiculturalism is a relatively new idea in political history, since when are people not actually allowed to disagree with it?

I just don't understand this recent extremist "anybody who doesn't favour total globalisation is a racist and should not be listened to" thing.

And again, I don't see how "hire locally" is any different to "buy locally". Both support the same end, which is putting the local community and local people first. If one is ok, so logically must the other.

Good points but they also want companies to list foreign workers. Schools in the UK are even being asked to do it. In the London school of economics they're excluding non Brits from the advice they're seeking.

Annasopra

Letree wrote: »

No, no we can't. That is a ridiculous comparison. Do you remember what the nazi's did. Do you think Teresa May will be herding people into gas chambers??

It's not a ridiculous comparison at all


http://www.thecanary.co/2016/10/06/lbc-radio-host-realises-new-home-secretary-based-conference-speech-hitlers-mein-kampf-video/

jackofalltrades

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It's not a ridiculous comparison at all


http://www.thecanary.co/2016/10/06/lbc-radio-host-realises-new-home-secretary-based-conference-speech-hitlers-mein-kampf-video/

Are you going to tell us what in that link supports your point?
If your comparing the current UK government to the Nazi's then you'd want to solidly back it up.

hatrickpatrick

steddyeddy wrote: »

Good points but they also want companies to list foreign workers. Schools in the UK are even being asked to do it. In the London school of economics they're excluding non Brits from the advice they're seeking.

In the first case, it's a tactic they hope presumably will either encourage boycotts against such companies or will embarrass those companies into hiring more local workers. In the second, that's presumably because they want advice over Brexit from people whose highest priority is seeing Britain get the best deal rather than any other country.

Again it just comes down to whether one believes in multiculturalism or not. Not believing in it is not "wrong", regardless of how many people try to claim that it is. I personally do believe in it, but I seem to be in somewhat of a minority in not being arrogant enough to state my opinions on the matter as facts and condemn everybody with different opinions.

Arcade_Tryer

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Again it just comes down to whether one believes in multiculturalism or not. Not believing in it is not "wrong", regardless of how many people try to claim that it is. I personally do believe in it, but I seem to be in somewhat of a minority in not being arrogant enough to state my opinions on the matter as facts and condemn everybody with different opinions.

There's also a key difference between believing in multiculturalism, and believing multiculturalism has worked. And your definition of "worked". Tricky topic.

Mena

Not sure if it's been called out yet or not but the Irish government already do this. You can pull a list of all companies with the number of work permits they've successfully and unsuccessfully applied for from the department of work (I forget the name) website. It stops short of putting names against these but the list is already there and has been for years.

Here it is: https://www.djei.ie/en/What-We-Do/Jobs-Workplace-and-Skills/Employment-Permits/Statistics/

suicide_circus

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

There's also a key difference between believing in multiculturalism, and believing multiculturalism has worked. And your definition of "worked". Tricky topic.

+1
To most educated (indoctrinated?) western eurpeans, multiculturalism is INTUITIVELY good. It ticks all the feel good boxes. Gets the progressive liberal serotonin flowing. this bears no relation however to how it plays out practically in real life.

A Dub in Glasgo

Mena wrote: »

Not sure if it's been called out yet or not but the Irish government already do this. You can pull a list of all companies with the number of work permits they've successfully and unsuccessfully applied for from the department of work (I forget the name) website. It stops short of putting names against these but the list is already there and has been for years.

Here it is: https://www.djei.ie/en/What-We-Do/Jobs-Workplace-and-Skills/Employment-Permits/Statistics/

I don't see British, French or Germans included in that list

listermint

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

In the first case, it's a tactic they hope presumably will either encourage boycotts against such companies or will embarrass those companies into hiring more local workers. In the second, that's presumably because they want advice over Brexit from people whose highest priority is seeing Britain get the best deal rather than any other country.

Again it just comes down to whether one believes in multiculturalism or not. Not believing in it is not "wrong", regardless of how many people try to claim that it is. I personally do believe in it, but I seem to be in somewhat of a minority in not being arrogant enough to state my opinions on the matter as facts and condemn everybody with different opinions.

Whilst your post is dressed up in what can be described as middle ground fair and even points

You haven't desuaded me to the fact it really is nothing more than.. 'they took our jobs'

Who exactly took what jobs?

What company's are giving jobs out that savvy Englandanders are vying for?

Its rabble rabble rabble dressed up in legitimate clothing and anyone that questions it is a liberally lefty globally world lover? Is that it?


Amusing if it wasn't so scary. Tbh

Water John

In the present environment Enoch Powell would have made PM.

hatrickpatrick

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I don't see British, French or Germans included in that list

That's because they are EU citizens and therefore don't count as foreigners. That no longer counts for the UK now that they will be leaving the EU. If we were to leave the EU, they would subsequently be included.

listermint wrote: »

Whilst your post is dressed up in what can be described as middle ground fair and even points

You haven't desuaded me to the fact it really is nothing more than.. 'they took our jobs'

That's exactly what it is, yes. What's your point?

Who exactly took what jobs?

Non-British citizens took the jobs that they're working in Britain, obviously...

What company's are giving jobs out that savvy Englandanders are vying for?

Isn't the whole point of compiling a list, to make it easier to figure this out?

Its rabble rabble rabble dressed up in legitimate clothing and anyone that questions it is a liberally lefty globally world lover? Is that it?

It's an anti-multiculturalism, anti-immigration policy. Nothing more, nothing less.

Amusing if it wasn't so scary. Tbh

I still don't see how it's scary, and nobody has yet managed to demonstrate how it is.

The fact that I'm having to defend the legitimacy of a policy I don't actually agree with is proof enough that the opposition to it has gone off the deep end in terms of ridiculousness.

Mena

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I don't see British, French or Germans included in that list

You didn't think that response through at all before hitting submit.

/pat

A Dub in Glasgo

Mena wrote: »

You didn't think that response through at all before hitting submit.

/pat

Of course I did, it is a statement of fact

Grayson

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

That's because they are EU citizens and therefore don't count as foreigners. That no longer counts for the UK now that they will be leaving the EU. If we were to leave the EU, they would subsequently be included.

Britain hasn't left the EU. Now if they were asking for lists of foreigners from key sectors so they can work out which sectors would be hit hardest in the event of a hard brexit that would be one thing. That's just surveying. I'm a maths nerd, I'm all up for gathering accurate statistics. They're not though. They've said it's for a name and shame exercise.

JJEire

YouGov: 59% of the public support foreign worker lists, while 28% "somewhat or stongly oppose" them.

hatrickpatrick

Grayson wrote: »

Britain hasn't left the EU.

Their inevitable exit is now in motion, so they're treating the situation as if they have.

Now if they were asking for lists of foreigners from key sectors so they can work out which sectors would be hit hardest in the event of a hard brexit that would be one thing. That's just surveying. I'm a maths nerd, I'm all up for gathering accurate statistics. They're not though. They've said it's for a name and shame exercise.

That's correct, I never suggested otherwise. I am simply stating that while I'm not anti-immigration, if the majority of the people choose to elect an anti immigration party which would prefer to encourage local businesses to prioritise citizens for hiring, there's nothing ideologically "bad" about it. There's a difference between simply opposing a policy and acting like people don't have a moral right to support it because it is somehow objectively "wrong".

Multiculturalism is a relatively recent phenomenon and it is perfectly reasonable and civilised for a person to be opposed to it.

AnGaelach

VinLieger wrote:

Can we all just agree they are Nazi's now? Weve been tip toeing around it but..... come one

They also don't allow foreign citizens to join Mi5/SiS and have to relinquish their other citizenship when they do.
What total nazis!!!! This is basically a second famine!!

Like, come on lad, seriously.

AnGaelach

hatrickpatrick wrote:

I still don't see how it's scary, and nobody has yet managed to demonstrate how it is.

It's a buzz-term when people can't actually argue a point and want shock factor. It's similar to calling something "problematic", "toxic" or "dangerous" when you disagree with it in principle.

Letree

I think it's a breath of fresh air to see a Western country come out and say we are putting our own people first now.

end of the road

Letree wrote: »

I think it's a breath of fresh air to see a Western country come out and say we are putting our own people first now.

such a policy is not about "putting their own first" . it's deliberately designed to appeal to the "jay tuck ur jobs and ur dole" types.
an employer must be able to choose the best candidate for their job. if british workers aren't getting jobs then it is on them to find out why they don't get the jobs and do what is necessary to make themselves competitive. the anti-discrimination laws protect native citizens as well as foreigners so it is illegal to refuse to hire workers due to their nationality. if an employer is found to be doing that then they can be prosecuted for doing so.

AnGaelach

end of the road wrote:

the anti-discrimination laws protect native citizens as well as foreigners.

If only that was true.

http //www express co uk/news/uk/670266/BBC-advert-white-people-ethnic-equality-staff-job-internship

Letree

end of the road wrote: »

such a policy is not about "putting their own first" . it's deliberately designed to appeal to the "jay tuck ur jobs and ur dole" types.
an employer must be able to choose the best candidate for their job. if british workers aren't getting jobs then it is on them to find out why they don't get the jobs and do what is necessary to make themselves competitive. the anti-discrimination laws protect native citizens as well as foreigners so it is illegal to refuse to hire workers due to their nationality. if an employer is found to be doing that then they can be prosecuted for doing so.

Post brexit that will all change

end of the road

Letree wrote: »

Post brexit that will all change

what will.
employers won't be able to choose the best candidates for their job? workers won't need to make themselves competitive? anti-discrimination laws won't protect anybody?
you are probably right tbh.

Letree

end of the road wrote: »

what will.
employers won't be able to choose the best candidates for their job? workers won't need to make themselves competitive? anti-discrimination laws won't protect anybody?
you are probably right tbh.

They will have left the EU and the free movement of labour is a big issue for them. So a polish worker will not have the same rights as an English worker in a few years time.

end of the road

Letree wrote: »

They will have left the EU and the free movement of labour is a big issue for them. So a polish worker will not have the same rights as an English worker in a few years time.

very true.
mind you, a british worker probably won't either, the tories aren't very big on workers or even human rights

hatrickpatrick

end of the road wrote: »

very true.
mind you, a british worker probably won't either, the tories aren't very big on workers or even human rights

Very true. People whose opposition to immigration stems from a purely work-related grievance are to a large extent cutting off their nose to spite their face by voting in economic conservatives who just happen to also be anti-immigration.

Water John

Sorry for ye great supporters of this naming and shaming. The Tories are in full retreat on this today.

maryishere

Letree wrote: »

I think it's a breath of fresh air to see a Western country come out and say we are putting our own people first now.

The same would happen in Ireland if we had the same population density as that in England. Imagine if Ireland was eight or ten times more crowded than it is now? What would the quality of life ( never mind the traffic on the M50 ) be like then?

Harry Palmr

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Whatever about the ministers use of language one knows rhetoric and reality are some distance apart. By the time what she intends is implemented it'll look quite different.

Oh look -

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/05/amber-rudd-defends-proposal-to-make-firms-reveal-foreign-staff-numbers

and yea verily it came to pass

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/09/plan-to-force-firms-to-reveal-foreign-staff-numbers-abandoned

The government has abandoned plans to force businesses to reveal how many foreign staff they employ, following widespread condemnation and accusations that the policy was akin to tattooing workers “with numbers on their forearms”.

Justine Greening, the education secretary, announced on Sunday that companies will not be made to publish the data as suggested by the home secretary, Amber Rudd, during the Conservative party conference.

She said the information would be confidential and instead used by the government to identify skills shortages, rather than to “name and shame” businesses that rely on foreign employees.

Galwayguy35

Water John wrote: »

Sorry for ye great supporters of this naming and shaming. The Tories are in full retreat on this today.

It's ok don't worry we were just voicing an opinion, how the UK decides to do this is up to themselves.

I'm more interested in how our own Government handles immigration over the next few years, but unfortunately it's never discussed by a left wing media or by any TDs in the Dail.

At least the Brits are discussing the issue.

end of the road

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

It's ok don't worry we were just voicing an opinion, how the UK decides to do this is up to themselves.

I'm more interested in how our own Government handles immigration over the next few years, but unfortunately it's never discussed by a left wing media or by any TDs in the Dail.

At least the Brits are discussing the issue.

immigration is discussed every day of the week. in the papers and on radio.

Galwayguy35

end of the road wrote: »

immigration is discussed every day of the week. in the papers and on radio.

Yeah it's very one sided though, Liam Cunningham shouting how "shamefull" Ireland is.