Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

westtip

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder what impact this will have on any potential reopening of rail services in Mayo



Updates on the project are available here: https://n17knockcollooney.ie/

I think the CBA ratio for the closed rail line just fell off a cliff

thanks for posting that one up, indeed the new N17 and the Greenway will be of huge benefit to the local economies.

macker16

It will be a long time before that road is built:D

eastwest

macker16 wrote: »

It will be a long time before that road is built:D

The time will seem very short by comparison with the return of a railway on this route.

westtip

macker16 wrote: »

It will be a long time before that road is built:D

That is very true, equally as already noted the railway is not going to happen any sooner. The fact of the matter that this route is part of the TEN-T network and will be liable for European funding. The railway from Athenry-Claremorris has already been the subject of a formal evaluation process in two reports that found it wanting in terms of any level of evaluation criteria, one of the most serious being potential EU funding (go look at Jaspers), re the railway north of Claremorris that is completely off anyones radar. If its not on the radar it is not in the planning process. This road is in the planning process so the seed has been planted, it is also part of the National Development plan, the two aforementioned reports were part of the NDP as well, and we know where they got the railway. Of course the railway is now on the national rail review, but lets be realistic about that one and the real priorities it will lay down. So yes you are right it will be a long time before that road will be built, the same was said of the N4 Castlebaldwin to Collooney (which will probably open before Christmas) just as an example, and by the way here is another example a section of the N5 that has been talked about for years is part of the NDP but got good news this week https://www.midwestradio.ie/index.php/news/48152-n5-project-in-roscommon-signed-off-on-by-minister?fbclid=IwAR1Giq2PPKRtSSbSBkjCMflmp_wwiKwNGFlsKQ49Lemg4sj-yIT-ZB5p630

All these things take a long time, but I can assure you in the fullness of time, over the next 15 years a dual carriageway will run from Letterkenny to Cork, and the WRC thread will still be discussing the WRC, one hopes in 15 years time, the discussion will be when is the railway parallel with the highly successful greenway going to be put in place, or will the electric cars, buses and trucks rendered it not necessary. Hey ho on we go but as I say having the project in the planning loop is important, and the WRC simply is not there.

Captain Lugger

Deleted User wrote: »

Thankfully you are not doing the calculations otherwise we'd be getting a maglev to Kiltimagh with your mathematical acrobatics

The campaign starts here! Thanx for the suggestion...

westtip

Great news for the west of ireland as Green Transport Minister signs off on new road. This part of the N5 has been a nightmare for years, reference to it here a couple of weeks ago that it was due to go to cabinet, now it has the nod. Can't wait to see the same as soon as possible for the N17 Collooney to Knock.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/9e42d-minister-ryan-announces-n5-ballaghaderreen-to-scramoge-road-project/?fbclid=IwAR1_8CwzZKoJ8K4i0lCLPoVY1qPsJX-7Xdvp6xMOUNtS9rTLGSyARNQEdjw

So WoT were so annoyed by the EY report that they thought was going to save the day, that they've gone and done their own special report which says, wait for it........ that it would be a brilliant use of money to reopen north of Athenry to Claremorris

Personally I was shocked by this revelation that only WOT could find in their own totally absolutely positively non-biased I swear report

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/case-against-rail-link-from-athenry-to-claremorris-fundamentally-flawed-1.4598670?mode=amp

westtip

Deleted User wrote: »

So WoT were so annoyed by the EY report that they thought was going to save the day, that they've gone and done their own special report which says, wait for it........ that it would be a brilliant use of money to reopen north of Athenry to Claremorris

Personally I was shocked by this revelation that only WOT could find in their own totally absolutely positively non-biased I swear report

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/case-against-rail-link-from-athenry-to-claremorris-fundamentally-flawed-1.4598670?mode=amp

Hilarious!!!!!

random_guy

Deleted User wrote: »

So WoT were so annoyed by the EY report that they thought was going to save the day, that they've gone and done their own special report which says, wait for it........ that it would be a brilliant use of money to reopen north of Athenry to Claremorris

Personally I was shocked by this revelation that only WOT could find in their own totally absolutely positively non-biased I swear report

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/case-against-rail-link-from-athenry-to-claremorris-fundamentally-flawed-1.4598670?mode=amp

Is it published anywhere?

eastwest

random_guy wrote: »

Is it published anywhere?

That's obviously the end of the debate so. I mean, what would the ECB know, and as for EY Consulting?
This latest stunt may keep the little band of fans happy, but no government in its right mind will do anything other than bin it.

They missed a trick though, the report should have said that the project can be done for nothing and with money back when it's done. After all, when you're writing the story, you can give it any ending you like. That's how fairy tales work.

random_guy

random_guy wrote: »

Is it published anywhere?

Not that I've been able to find so far

I did check their site and even their latest news section, however that just contained a press release from 2018 when they said this about the EY report

We are confident that the independent review of the potential of the railway in the context of the Atlantic Economic Corridor will confirm the major contribution that the railway can make in terms of regional connectivity, linking Galway city with its natural hinterland in line with the National Planning Framework, as well as opening up the southern ports directly to freight traffic from the west, an essential requirement in the context of Brexit.

That independent review didn't go the way they wanted so they've written their own review that says what they want because, well, umm, they wrote it to say that lol

WOT are currently not responding to requests in their Facebook & Twitter feeds where people are asking to see the report itself rather than a press release about the report

Decades

Genuinely - what's going on here lads?

1) https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/news/iarnrod-eireann-and-xpo-logistics-to-begin-new-twi

and now this 2) https://fleet.ie/national-local-politicians-call-on-dublin-port-to-reverse-its-decision-on-ceasing-its-freight-service-to-and-from-ballina/

Are we getting increased freight trains, to and from Ballina,- or not? Asking for a friend.

eastwest

Decades wrote: »

Genuinely - what's going on here lads?

1) https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/news/iarnrod-eireann-and-xpo-logistics-to-begin-new-twi

and now this 2) https://fleet.ie/national-local-politicians-call-on-dublin-port-to-reverse-its-decision-on-ceasing-its-freight-service-to-and-from-ballina/

Are we getting increased freight trains, to and from Ballina,- or not? Asking for a friend.

We're not getting more trains from Ballina, even if they can coax another mega polluter like asahi back .
In the short term, there will.probably be no major changes in freight levels. Longer term, once Coca Cola has monitored their need to be in ballina post Brexit, who knows?
Either way, the chances of a second freight line being built to serve Ballina, when the existing one has the capacity to handle ten times as much volume, is pretty slim.

blackwhite

Decades wrote: »

Genuinely - what's going on here lads?

1) https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/news/iarnrod-eireann-and-xpo-logistics-to-begin-new-twi

and now this 2) https://fleet.ie/national-local-politicians-call-on-dublin-port-to-reverse-its-decision-on-ceasing-its-freight-service-to-and-from-ballina/

Are we getting increased freight trains, to and from Ballina,- or not? Asking for a friend.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/dublin-port-rail-link-suspended-due-to-brexit-congestion-1.4594404

Dublin Port Company are no longer allowing the IWT trains cross East Wall Road and enter the port - and so IWT have had to suspend their rail-freight from Ballina to Dublin.

They are still going ahead with their expanded Waterford service

They seem to still be allowing the Tara Mines trains into the Port, as I saw one heading down Alexandra Rd yesterday.

Del.Monte

Western Rail Corridor, or Connemara Railway, coming up on Drivetime in the next few minutes.

Del.Monte

It was the WRC - Dr.John Bradley - "It's a very good project".

Decades

Del.Monte wrote: »

It was the WRC - Dr.John Bradley - "It's a very good project".

It's not a project - c'est le problème.

eastwest

Decades wrote: »

It's not a project - c'est le problème.

It is a project, but of the imagination.
And of reports, lots of reports.

Grassey

This quote from Michael Gove in 2016 popped into my mind reading the last few posts.... for some reason :pac:

“I think the people of this country have had enough of experts with organisations with acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong.”

westtip

Thjs quote also came to mind from a retired economist on drivetime this week

The bridges are there the railway line is there, the beauty of this is that it is ready to go

Ballglunin? Railway line that is only fit for scrap? I think The West on Track report author is being a tad optimistic.

end of the road

westtip wrote: »

Thjs quote also came to mind from a retired economist on drivetime this week



Ballglunin? Railway line that is only fit for scrap? I think The West on Track report author is being a tad optimistic.

ready to go means the relevant requirements are in place for the line to be rebuilt and reopened.
so the route, embankments, and most bridges etc.
the line will have to be rebuilt of course, new track, drainage works etc but that is standard practice for a line that has been out of use for a good few years, and with most of the big infrastructure in place it is easy to do and the missing bridge can be built easily.



at the opposite end of the scale you have as an example, the old line to west cork which was completely and deliberately and systematically obliterated after closure, which could never be reopened if there was ever a want for it.

westtip

end of the road wrote: »

ready to go means the relevant requirements are in place for the line to be rebuilt and reopened.
so the route, embankments, and most bridges etc.
the line will have to be rebuilt of course, new track, drainage works etc but that is standard practice for a line that has been out of use for a good few years, and with most of the big infrastructure in place it is easy to do and the missing bridge can be built easily.



at the opposite end of the scale you have as an example, the old line to west cork which was completely and deliberately and systematically obliterated after closure, which could never be reopened if there was ever a want for it.

Yes of course but he was factually incorrect when he said all the bridges are there, What!!!! A Factually incorrect statement from the author of the West on Track report!!!! Good god we will have to have a peer review, mind you hats off to west on track this is the best bit of spoofing codology they have come up with in years. Problem is they have simply not got over the fact that the government reports weren't McCann Mark 2 Maybe that is what we should call the new West on Track report, McCann 2. Nahhh let's just call it the West on Track Report . It is a report written by a lobby group fair play to them but it is not a "peer review" it is not a government policy document and it will be seen for what it is a lobbyists report touting their POV, thats fine as long as all the TDs receiving it in the Dail today, apparently it is being handed out today see it for what it is.

eastwest

This latest WOT document won't be taken seriously by the government, and indeed won't be seen as in any way unbiased -- the author has some history of public support for WOT.
But this stroke by WOT is clever, it's designed to muddy the waters not only around the national rail review but also around the county development plans in galway and mayo.
This WOT document won't get them a train, particularly one that can travel on the bits of track and over the bridges that aren't there, but it may delay decisions locally on the greenway, which is the purpose of the exercise.
But it won't fool the people making the decisions in the Department and the EIB; their position was already made clear in the two official reports.

end of the road

westtip wrote: »

Yes of course but he was factually incorrect when he said all the bridges are there, What!!!! A Factually incorrect statement from the author of the West on Track report!!!! Good god we will have to have a peer review, mind you hats off to west on track this is the best bit of spoofing codology they have come up with in years. Problem is they have simply not got over the fact that the government reports weren't McCann Mark 2 Maybe that is what we should call the new West on Track report, McCann 2. Nahhh let's just call it the West on Track Report . It is a report written by a lobby group fair play to them but it is not a "peer review" it is not a government policy document and it will be seen for what it is a lobbyists report touting their POV, thats fine as long as all the TDs receiving it in the Dail today, apparently it is being handed out today see it for what it is.

so he forgot a particular bridge was missing, sure it's a tad poor but not really a big deal.
when you say see the report for what it is, really it's see it for what you want it to see, because the report could very much be actually accurate and much better then the last report.
hard to dismiss a report that hasn't been published.

eastwest wrote: »

This latest WOT document won't be taken seriously by the government, and indeed won't be seen as in any way unbiased -- the author has some history of public support for WOT.
But this stroke by WOT is clever, it's designed to muddy the waters not only around the national rail review but also around the county development plans in galway and mayo.
This WOT document won't get them a train, particularly one that can travel on the bits of track and over the bridges that aren't there, but it may delay decisions locally on the greenway, which is the purpose of the exercise.
But it won't fool the people making the decisions in the Department and the EIB; their position was already made clear in the two official reports.

it's not designed to fool anyone, it's designed to put forward the facts and the case for reopening the line.
rail reopening campaigns generally take a very very long time to gain any sort of traction, so the fact that governments staul is not any sort of surprise, it's to be expected.
positions can change, after all it was position from 1976 to have no services on the WRC, then the ennis services were introduced after presssure, and then the through route was reopened, not to mention that some freight services operated on the line for a time, presumably which irish rail would have preferred to not have operated by that route.

ShaneC1600

end of the road wrote: »

so he forgot a particular bridge was missing, sure it's a tad poor but not really a big deal.

That bridge was removed under licence. Therefore under the licence necessary funding for reinstating the bridge will be made available. The bridge will be replaced at no expense to CIE in a similar fashion if the rail was operational so in reality and economically the bridge is not an issue for reactivating the line. The bridge was removed to accommodate the widening of the N63 and would have happened regardless of the railway and its good that it was removed opening up the road.

Personally I'm totally shocked that WOT's report 100% supports WOT's position.

I mean its incredible that the report they paid for and wrote and had editorial control over said exactly what they want.

Truly amazing!

in other news, turkeys wrote a report saying christmas dinner is a bad idea

ezstreet5

This report appears rather extensive. It will take awhile to review in detail, like the EY report did.

eastwest

ezstreet5 wrote: »

This report appears rather extensive. It will take awhile to review in detail, like the EY report did.

The West on track document is big, but not extensive, if you know what I mean.
It contains a lot of padding that would have probably been removed back in the author's working days when there would have been editorial oversight, it would have benefited from heavy editing. It contains loads of historical stuff that is interesting but irrelevant in the context of a lobbying document.
Well produced though, with nice coloured pictures etc to make it attractive to TDs and councillors.
Essentially, this is a West on track lobbying document that attempts to counter the poor figures on the ennis athenry investment by quoting figures for sections of the existing Dublin galway line. This has long been a bedrock of the WOT argument, so nothing new here.
The other main plank of this WOT document is a grossly underestimated set of figures on the construction of a new railway from athenry to Claremorris, figures that don't reflect costs in Ireland in any way.
It's hard to see what they're at with this document. It won't fool the department of transport or CIE, but maybe that's not their aim. It just has to persuade councillors that a railway is not only imminent, but that the predicted cost of that railway is just a hoax perpetuated by that crowd up in Dublin. Stalling investment on the western transport corridor until Sinn Fein gets into government appears to be the long plan.

end of the road

eastwest wrote: »

The West on track document is big, but not extensive, if you know what I mean.
It contains a lot of padding that would have probably been removed back in the author's working days when there would have been editorial oversight, it would have benefited from heavy editing. It contains loads of historical stuff that is interesting but irrelevant in the context of a lobbying document.
Well produced though, with nice coloured pictures etc to make it attractive to TDs and councillors.
Essentially, this is a West on track lobbying document that attempts to counter the poor figures on the ennis athenry investment by quoting figures for sections of the existing Dublin galway line. This has long been a bedrock of the WOT argument, so nothing new here.
The other main plank of this WOT document is a grossly underestimated set of figures on the construction of a new railway from athenry to Claremorris, figures that don't reflect costs in Ireland in any way.
It's hard to see what they're at with this document. It won't fool the department of transport or CIE, but maybe that's not their aim. It just has to persuade councillors that a railway is not only imminent, but that the predicted cost of that railway is just a hoax perpetuated by that crowd up in Dublin. Stalling investment on the western transport corridor until Sinn Fein gets into government appears to be the long plan.

CIE'S viewpoint doesn't matter really since they won't be the ones making the decisions and if the line is reopened, they will operate it as told to or they won't be paid.


so whether they would or wouldn't be fooled, if the report was actually designed to fool people, which it wasn't, wouldn't really matter since they no longer have any say.

eastwest

end of the road wrote: »

CIE'S viewpoint doesn't matter really since they won't be the ones making the decisions and if the line is reopened, they will operate it as told to or they won't be paid.


so whether they would or wouldn't be fooled, if the report was actually designed to fool people, which it wasn't, wouldn't really matter since they no longer have any say.

The advice of CIE is always sought when developing rail projects, that's where most of the railway expertise lies in any case.
In addition, Irish Rail is given a fixed subsidy, so they will naturally bring concerns to government if they think they will be asked to operate any new route that will disproportionately eat into that subsidy.

westtip

Deleted User wrote: »

in other news, turkeys wrote a report saying christmas dinner is a bad idea

Here is a challenge to think what other great reports might be coming up

Cadburys launch The Chocolate in excess is good for you report

westtip

end of the road wrote: »

s

hard to dismiss a report that hasn't been published.



.

It has been published, you not got a copy yet? Its very pretty, great production values, that make it look very "official" just lacks substance and is clearly a lobbyists document. It contains ther same old arguments we have heard time and time again, It's claims against the EY report are little short of farcical. It will carry very little credibility.

end of the road wrote: »

it's not designed to fool anyone, it's designed to put forward the facts and the case for reopening the line.
.

Hilarious!!!!! Oh and I wonder who paid for it, probably from party funds I would imagine. A quick call from the commanding officer in Claremorris to HQ in West Belfast could we have a few quid to undermine the government please.

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

Here is a challenge to think what other great reports might be coming up

Cadburys launch The Chocolate in excess is good for you report

A report written by BAT that shows the benefits of smoking?


A report written by Donald trump explaining how he won the election?

Sam Russell

eastwest wrote: »

A report written by BAT that shows the benefits of smoking?


A report written by Donald trump explaining how he won the election?

How about a report that proposes reopening the canals to freight? It would certainly score on the zero carbon spectrum - particularly if it was horse drawn.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

How about a report that proposes reopening the canals to freight? It would certainly score on the zero carbon spectrum - particularly if it was horse drawn.

Could use shredded copies of the WOt report as bedding for the horses, would be even more environmentally friendly then!

Reduce, Reuse, Recycle!

Del.Monte

eastwest wrote: »

The advice of CIE is always sought when developing rail projects, that's where most of the railway expertise lies in any case.
In addition, Irish Rail is given a fixed subsidy, so they will naturally bring concerns to government if they think they will be asked to operate any new route that will disproportionately eat into that subsidy.

What is this expertise of which you speak? Closing railways; de-manning stations; demolishing buildings; scrapping perfectly good locomotives and rolling stock.,,,,I could go on but what's the point....:rolleyes:

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

Could use shredded copies of the WOt report as bedding for the horses, would be even more environmentally friendly then!

Reduce, Reuse, Recycle!

REFUSE (verb), Repair, reduce, recycle, Refuse (noun).

eastwest

Sam Russell wrote: »

How about a report that proposes reopening the canals to freight? It would certainly score on the zero carbon spectrum - particularly if it was horse drawn.

West on towpath has a nice ring to it

eastwest

Del.Monte wrote: »

What is this expertise of which you speak? Closing railways; de-manning stations; demolishing buildings; scrapping perfectly good locomotives and rolling stock.,,,,I could go on but what's the point....:rolleyes:

They have most of the expertise when it comes to building and maintaining railway infrastructure, and running train services. That's inarguable.

ShaneC1600

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Could use shredded copies of the WOt report as bedding for the horses, would be even more environmentally friendly then!

Reduce, Reuse, Recycle!

Could also ask the council for the 5000 replicated copies of the greenway submission for the Development Plan. They will all need recycling fairly soon.

eastwest

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Could also ask the council for the 5000 replicated copies of the greenway submission for the Development Plan. They will all need recycling fairly soon.

Shocking isn't it? The plebs are organised, they've forgotten their place in the scheme of things.
What next, they'll be asking county councils to be transparent and represent them?

ShaneC1600

eastwest wrote: »

Shocking isn't it? The plebs are organised, they've forgotten their place in the scheme of things.
What next, they'll be asking county councils to be transparent and represent them?

Yep, seriously organised and well equipped with 5000 lucky cards, ready to be sent and dropped in to a council near you, or at least near if your from Galway!

ezstreet5

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Yep, seriously organised and well equipped with 5000 lucky cards, ready to be sent and dropped in to a council near you, or at least near if your from Galway!

ouch!

westtip

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Could also ask the council for the 5000 replicated copies of the greenway submission for the Development Plan. They will all need recycling fairly soon.

Yep Mayo county council has to deal with 1,000 greenway submissions on the county plan, I think what its actually called is people in their droves participating in the democratic process. Hard to deal with isn't it.

ShaneC1600

westtip wrote: »

Yep Mayo county council has to deal with 1,000 greenway submissions on the county plan, I think what its actually called is people in their droves participating in the democratic process. Hard to deal with isn't it.

Well kinda, similar to maybe if China went democratic and they said they would fill in your ballot for you, you just need to agree 😀

eastwest

I see some of the WOT stalwarts are branching out into advising on other areas of public policy.
https://www.midwestradio.ie/index.php/news/48907-people-will-get-pneumonia-if-indoor-dining-remains-closed-claims-mayo-councillor

Sam Russell

eastwest wrote: »

I see some of the WOT stalwarts are branching out into advising on other areas of public policy.
https://www.midwestradio.ie/index.php/news/48907-people-will-get-pneumonia-if-indoor-dining-remains-closed-claims-mayo-councillor

From the article heading.

People will get pneumonia if indoor dining remains closed, claims Mayo Councillor

It is summer, so they might get sunburnt, but not pneumonia - obviously not in the real world.

Decades

I'm backing this - West on Track are proposing a Quiet Man Greenway ... only 700M, but it's a start. https://www.facebook.com/groups/213079802087801/posts/4470283366367402/

ezstreet5

Finally just getting to this new WOT-published appraisal report. Agree that a lot of the opening material is superfluous for a rail review & CBA. It may be interesting for historians, but not for transport planners. The WOT analysis does not actually begin until halfway through.

The build costs are really going to be a significant driver, though. EY says that those are €263.8m and WOT says they are €153.8m. Given that Phase 1 cost €106.5m for 58km and included five new/refurbished stations, I can't see the Phase 2/3 costs exceeding WOT's estimate. Phases 2/3 would be 6km shorter, and include three fewer stations. On this point, I would have to reject EY's costs as being "officially" exorbitant and incorrect. Perhaps EY were just trying to avoid the embarrassment of a cost overrun, and went a little (way) to far to protect themselves.

ezstreet5

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Finally just getting to this new WOT-published appraisal report. Agree that a lot of the opening material is superfluous for a rail review & CBA. It may be interesting for historians, but not for transport planners. The WOT analysis does not actually begin until halfway through.

The build costs are really going to be a significant driver, though. EY says that those are €263.8m and WOT says they are €153.8m. Given that Phase 1 cost €106.5m for 58km and included five new/refurbished stations, I can't see the Phase 2/3 costs exceeding WOT's estimate. Phases 2/3 would be 6km shorter, and include three fewer stations. On this point, I would have to reject EY's costs as being "officially" exorbitant and incorrect. Perhaps EY were just trying to avoid the embarrassment of a cost overrun, and went a little (way) to far to protect themselves.

So a few things

You say phase 1 cost 106.5m. Don't forget that was against WOT's estimate of 76m, so it ended up being 40% higher than their makey uppey numbers so they have form in being wayyyyy off

Next, you say you reject EY's costs. Thats fine. The important thing is their costs have been accepted by Cabinet, Dept of Transport & IE. Whether you or I accept them is irrelevant

On a final note, its great to see the consultants have been appointed for the Galway section of the greenway, The Quiet Man Greenway.

A consultant has been appointed to lead a feasibility study on the Quiet Man Greenway between Athenry and Milltown.

The proposed amenity has been the subject of long-running local campaigns and would run for 47km, connecting Athenry, Ballyglunin, Tuam and Milltown.

Earlier this year, €75 thousand was allocated for the carrying out of a feasibility study.

Galway East Deputy Ciaran Cannon says a consultant has now been appointed to lead that process.

He points out that two previous studies have outlined how the disused rail line will not be needed for any rail service for the foreseeable future.

Deputy Cannon is hopeful we’ll have a final answer on the future of the greenway by the end of the year.