First olympic transgender athlete to compete at Tokyo 2020 **MOD NOTE IN OP**

Are you seriously comparing people who disagree with a trans woman competing against women, with the racist arseholes who abused the English soccer players? If you're putting them in the same category that's ridiculous.

No, that’s not the comparison I’m making. People simply disagreeing with men participating in women’s events are one thing, and they generally either keep their opinions to themselves, or express their opinions in echo chambers where they’re pretty certain everyone agrees with their opinions already and they’re all on the same page that they “can’t say what they’re thinking for fear of being excluded”, or “a backlash” or sanctioned, or worst of all, being “cancelled” 🙄

No, what I was comparing is the likelihood of how women participating in what are considered “men’s sports” would be regarded and treated, as they pretty much are now, by people who portray themselves as being the “guardians” of who is or isn’t entitled to participate in “their” sports, y’know, the type that appear to make it their personal mission in life to break people’s balls, doesn’t matter how, doesn’t matter whether or not they’re racist or anything else (and I personally don’t care whether or not they’re racist or whatever else).

They’re very quick to point out they’re not racist, they’re just enthusiastic fans, or it’s a bit of banter, or it’s all part of the sport and it comes with the territory of being an elite athlete or competing at a high level (any level really beyond the egg and spoon race at the school sports day, and even then…), but that’s why I didn’t point out that anyone is racist or anything else, because they would have found any reason to vindicate themselves and justify abusing players personally for “their” teams loss. The fact that it is the team manager who makes decisions as to who is taking penalties is neither here nor there in their minds, it’s irrelevant, same way it’s irrelevant that participants in the Olympics are decided by a national committee, and not by the individual athletes themselves.

All the responsibility for “their” teams loss rests on the shoulders of the individual they hold responsible for their teams loss, and if that individual is a woman, well that’s the reason why their team lost, and she must be made personally aware as far as they’re concerned that she is responsible for “their” teams loss, not because of anything related to her athletic or sporting abilities, but because she’s a woman, and women don’t belong in “the men’s game”, any more than men don’t belong in “women’s sports”.

Of course when the spotlight is cast upon themselves, well that’s just “unfairrrrrr” as far as they’re concerned, and “nobody deserves this abuse” -

Funny, I can't find an article that checked to see how many male elite sports athletes get abused online... Seems no one cares to check, or I just didn't Google hard enough. How about these people (men and women) get rid of their social media accounts and just concentrate on the sport? Oh, they'd lose money from advertising I suppose...

I explained already what one thing has to do with the other, and for what it’s worth, I don’t think it has anything to do with racism per se, and everything to do with some people who have this mad notion that it’s they who gets to decide or determine who does or doesn’t have the right to participate in “their” sports. They’re the kind of people who will take it upon themselves to ensure people they don’t want participating in “their” sports, know they’re not welcome, make sure those people know that it’s because of them, that “their” sports are ruined, that they can no longer enjoy sports because it’s ruined for them now… and they expect people should give a shìt!

I don’t remember anyone arguing it was fine to exclude anyone btw, sounds like something you made up yourself just to argue against it, but if anyone wants to exclude themselves, on the basis that they’re not taken seriously when they want to exclude anyone else, then that’s definitely not the same thing as anyone being excluded from participating by the organising or governing body of the sport.

I don’t think ground sports are in decline btw, but fcuk evidence like, it doesn’t appear to be required at this stage, particularly when in spite of being presented with evidence of what does cause children to drop out of participating in sports is just cast aside in favour of arguing for a return to ye olde “tough love” approach… as if that’s actually going to achieve anything positive for any sport or any of the participants or people who want to participate in sports and want to continue to participate in sports.

Ya kinda have to reconsider your approach when in just the last week we’ve already seen grown men act like sulky babbies when a match doesn’t go their way. I can completely understand their emotions getting the better of them and y’know, shed a wee tear, but the whole dramatics of ripping the medals from their necks and all the rest of it? Bit much, y’know? Certainly not the kind of behaviour or attitude I’d encourage anyone to aspire to, be they grown adults or children.

Complete bullshit there. The gap between males and females at elite level in Ultra marathon racing is pretty much the same as every other race distance.

Nobody is being excluded from sports they wish to participate in since the rules were changed to allow people who are transgender to compete in the protected categories of their preferred gender identity.*

I was responding to the point being made by Gatling that broadening the eligibility criteria to allow people who are transgender to participate in the protected categories of their preferred gender would mean that it would exclude other people who don’t want to participate in sports with people who are transgender. My point is that that those people are choosing to exclude themselves, they are not being excluded by the change in the rules governing the sports or organising bodies of the sports which allow people who are transgender to participate in the protected categories of their preferred gender.

I’ve never met any male sportspersons who consider themselves excluded from a sport just because they are not allowed compete in the protected female category either, but I know that the IOC rules were changed as a result of Chris Mosier wanting to compete in the protected male category in accordance with their preferred gender identity -

While he qualified, Mosier was uncertain about his eligibility to compete in the Duathlon Age Group World Championship Race in Spain in June 2016 due to the International Olympic Committee policy around the participation of transgender athletes,[7]with specific provisions from the Stockholm Consensus in 2004.[8] In 2015, Mosier challenged the policy,[9] resulting in the creation and adoption of new IOC guidelines for the participation of transgender athletes.[10] Mosier was considered the catalyst for change in the policy in January 2016,[11]after he successfully advocated for change in the policy[12] to allow his participation in the World Championship and future races. Following the policy change, in 2016 Mosier raced in the International Triathlon Union Sprint Duathlon World Championship race in Aviles, Spain, becoming the first known transgender athlete to compete in the World Championship race.[13]

In 2020 Mosier became the first openly transgender male athlete to ever compete in an Olympic trial alongside other men; however, he was unable to finish the race due to injury.[14]

Mosier began competing in triathlon in 2009 as female. In 2010, Mosier publicly self-identified as a transgender man[15] in The Advocate, an American LGBTQ+ magazine, after competing in his first race as male. In 2011 Mosier was featured in The New York Times[1] prior to competing in the Nautica New York City Triathlon, a race he competed in two years prior as female.

In 2016 Mosier was chosen as the first openly transgender athlete to be featured in the "Body Issue" of ESPN The Magazine.[16]

*EDIT: I should have added a caveat to that, I was speaking in the context of people who are transgender, but there are people who are excluded from participating in sports in protected categories because they refuse to undergo unnecessary medical treatments to handicap their performance. Caster Semenya is fighting for the right of people like her to participate in sports on that front.

It has everything to do with people who are transgender competing in female sports events and whether or not it is fair or unfair. I was making the point that the situation is similar to the way in which some people think it is they who should get to decide who does or doesn’t get to participate in what they consider are “their” sports, and who does or doesn’t belong in “their” sports.

Individuals simply don’t have that right, nobody does, and it would be unfair and unreasonable were anyone to have the right to say that anyone else doesn’t belong in “their” sport, and for that person to be excluded from competing in women’s events or men’s events in accordance with their gender identity. It’s as unreasonable as anyone suggesting that because of the colour of a person’s skin, they should “go back to where they came from”, or the idea that that individual doesn’t belong in “their” sport.

You asked me to clarify what I meant, so I did. I think it would be unreasonable for anyone to imagine that they could simply declare that someone doesn’t belong in the competition on the basis of their own individual beliefs about that individual, as though a snappy one-liner put-down is sufficient reason to demand that local, national and international sports organisations and federation and associations should just accede to their demands without telling them as politely as possible to fcuk off and get over themselves.

Yeah I don't understand the poster you quoted either. Trying to drag racism in sport into a discussion about trans gender women in sport is just bizarre.

I’ve already addressed that point, numerous times! The most likely reason I can only assume you haven’t seen my addressing it is because you made a conscious effort on numerous occasions to remind me that you’re ignoring my posts. Ignoring my posts is fine, accusing me of not having addressed the point because you’re choosing to ignore my posts? Yeah… I’m sure that makes sense in your head though, and that’s all that should be as important to anyone else as it is to you, is what you think!

FWIW in quick summation, not that you’ll ever read this since you have me on ignore and all, although I wasn’t aware the new site has a selective hearing (or rather viewing) facility, you must show me how to do that -

I don’t agree that sex categories were ever established to protect women, they were established as separate organisations by women because women were excluded from participating in competitions with men.

Secondly, they were not established to give women a chance to compete, nor do they exist to give women a chance to compete (against whom, themselves?), they exist as an alternative to exclude women from participating in sports with men, therefore reinforcing the notion that women are inferior to men - they’re paid less, they’re treated worse, and their events are not promoted to anything like the same degree as the equivalent men’s sports. What are women being protected from exactly? Because it looks more to me as though it’s men wanting to protect their sports from women!

Your last point about sex categories being removed is not one that I’ve argued in favour of, nor do I see it as necessary to replace sex categories with gender categories, that’s just replacing one set of stereotypes for another, but in any case it certainly does not mean that women wouldn’t be able to compete with men. They can, and they do, when they are given the opportunity without putting up all sorts of barriers in their way to prevent them from even thinking about continuing to participate in sports beyond primary school level.

Exactly. Just get rid of the different categories and let everyone compete with everyone else.

It is a bit daft that women really haven't ever been allowed to compete with men and instead are forced into a separate category.

Plus it would kind of make the Olympics feel a bit less bloated by cutting down on the number of events.

Ignoring all the irrelevant sidetracks, are you agreeing that nobody is going to be excluded from a sport as a result of being excluded from a protected category. That's a simple yes/no question. Can you answer it without pages of irrelevant waffle?

Do you also agree that the whole point of protected categories is to exclude people people who don't meet the required criteria from competing in that category from competing in that category. Yes/No

Do you also agree that a protected category requires rules to define the category, so some people will be required to set these rules, and as a result this collection of people will by the whole fundamental nature of the concept, end up deciding that people who don't fit within those rules are excluded from competing in the protected category? Yes/No

Are you really that fundamentally lacking in knowledge and understanding? To take your 100 meter example, the 3 medalists would be the 3 fastest men. The "quota" competitors would not stand a chance against the men. You've perfectly highlighted why protected categories exist in the first place. If you think otherwise then please give any example from any Olympic track and field event in any Olympics where the gold medal winning female would have managed a bronze medal (or better) in the equivalent male event. Just one. Ever.

You suggested we ignore irrelevant side-tracks, and then you introduce an argument I couldn’t care less about, using an example I’ve never used. What’s that about?

Instead of introducing arguments I couldn’t care less about, using examples I’ve never used, how about you just make your point? Or is your actual point the argument I couldn’t care less about?

If so, I’ll happily ignore the irrelevant side-track you’re attempting to introduce into the conversation that you’re trying to insinuate I’m responsible for. That’s entirely on you.