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F1 2021 Round 10 : Silverstone

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 13,408 ✭✭✭✭antodeco


    If I was karting and that opportunity rose, I'd 100% have tried the same move. However, I'd realise I wouldn't make it, and brake. At F1 speeds, you don't have that ability, so I don't think Lewis was wrong to attempt what he did. However, his execution and positioning were totally wrong. He deserved a penalty.

    What that penalty should have been is a different discussion. The severity of penalties don't ever seem to match the incident. As someone mentioned, Tsunda got the same for driving over a white line twice. That penalty is severe. I think the penalties should be that if you cause a collision it's a guaranteed drive through penalty. Depending on the severity, it turns into a stop/go with increasing time amounts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,379 ✭✭✭✭klose


    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that those posts are people on a bit of a wind up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,553 ✭✭✭murphyebass


    As much as I despise Hamilton even I wouldn’t stretch to say he was trying to kill Max. It could have ended up that way but I don’t think he went into the corner saying this is it, I’ll get that fucker now, my 7 titles are safe!

    That said the punishment in no way matched the crime.

    For me there was intent or implied intent in doing what he did as he knew it wasn’t a simple overtake but any stretch of the imagination.

    I like to see hard racing but this was poor judgement on Hamilton’s part that could have led to a fellow driver being seriously injured or worse.

    The penalty should be reviewed in my opinion.

    And then his unsportsmanlike behaviour should also be reviewed as that was an absolute and utter disgrace particularly from a holier than thou member of the paddock.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,382 ✭✭✭petes


    It's also hilarious watching people try to defend Hamilton with nonsense reasons and it's more cringey than the other comments. Twitter is worse, someone posted a pic just after Hamilton made contact and then tried to say Max turned in 🤣



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,612 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    Having watched the crash a number of times I just can’t believe how they felt a 10 second penalty was appropriate.


    I don’t think Lewis deliberately took him out per se, I do however, believe that he went into the corner knowing that either Max let him trough, or it was toast! A driver of his experience absolutley knows what would likely happen on that corner, and he was ok with putting another driver at risk over it!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,938 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Yet any criticism of Saint Lew is is "cringe" and "salty".


    It genuinely seems Lewis may have vision issues when it comes to seeing a Red Bull car. He struggles with his spacial awareness whenever a Red Bull is near him.



    Or he may be a dirty driver. I know which is more likely.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,752 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    New take, Lewis isn't the bad guy here. It's Pete "Bono" Bonnington. F1 put up a radio clip of Lewis asking "Is Max OK?" to which "Bono" rather dismissively said "Yeah, he's out of the car".

    Once a driver hears that, its like a "head down" message.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭McFly85


    Thinking about it this morning, I can kind of understand how the stewards reached their decision. You cannot base a punishment in the context of the championship(like if he had done the same to LeClerc or someone, the punishment should be the same). And you don't want to see racers completely back out of hard racing if they think there's a chance the punishment will ruin their entire race.

    Having said that, Lewis was in the wrong, and from a sporting perspective, it's completely ludicrous that he could take out the pole sitter and still be in the position to take maximum points. It reminded me of WWE, Lewis had basically taken Max out with the chair and was celebrating his victory like nothing happened.

    For me, there needs to be some post race punishments that can bring in some context after a review. Something like a 5 place grid penalty for the next race, or just docking some championship points. I know they added points to his license but that's not really an active punishment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,394 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    I'm happy this has played out exactly as it has. Builds the tension nicely for the next couple of races 😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,320 ✭✭✭v3ttel


    I'm finding it incredibly difficult to listen to Sky's coverage any more. Only Jensen really offered any sort of unbiased opinion.

    Hamilton had lots of space. It's not a good look when you miss the apex, punt your main championship rival, benefit from the resulting red flag by repairing the damage, receive an exceptionally lenient penalty, benefit from team orders, overtake what is effectively a midfield car for the lead, and then celebrate like you've won the WDC.

    Not only that, but when you punt someone into Copse, there is only one place they are going and that's the wall. Would be surprised if this is also not a guaranteed engine penalty for Max later in the season as that PU is well and truly screwed. It could be a 50 point swing in the championship overall (Hamilton gaining 25 rather than losing 8, and then Verstappen having to start from the back at a later event).

    Even Brundle (who I really like), let slip his real feelings on the "racing incident", when he assumed the 10 second penalty was actually a 10 second stop & go. That's 3 times he's punted a Red Bull (right rear to left front), ruining the other drivers race for a modest penalty.

    Either of them could just do this every week, punt the other off the track, get a 10 second penalty and cruise through to win anyway. Amazing to think Verstappen is still ahead in the championship after 2 DNFs already, both times when he was in the lead.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,087 ✭✭✭eviltimeban


    It's certainly added a bit of spice to an already spicy season. DTS is gonna be off the chain next series.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭McFly85


    Yep thought Jenson was really good yesterday, especially pressing Toto on his interpretation of owning a corner.

    But it’s a real shame that Rosberg wasn’t there this weekend to do the interviews. That would have been box office!



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,229 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    I still think it's not deliberate. anyone who thinks hamilton did that deliberately on one of the fastest corners in F1 and hes going to carry on, its pure luck that hamilton didnt take his own wheel off. you must thinkhes an amazing driver to be able to pull that off

    as far as the leclerc overtake, hamilton had more grip on those tyres and he was much faster in general than leclerc. so not really comparable.

    anyway spices up the rest of the season, its one of those situations where hamilton had to stay in there and not back out, because verstappen would have had the psychological advantage for the 2nd half of the season



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,868 ✭✭✭Joeface


    again People are still Implying it was intentional , and  the stewards penalise the offence, not the effects of an offence. He did not intentionally punt him off the track . He got his over take attempt wrong very wrong and I think it should have be a drive through penalty , but it turns out it is in line with how they apply the penalties . I have spent a while reading through how they look at these things this morning and much to my surprise it is in line with the penalties

    Someone else here pointed out the Tsunoda got a penalty for crossing a white line , its not a white line , its the pit lane entry you only go there to enter to pits , the Pits are a whole other rule , Stewarts have a zero tolerance for it . Lewis last year got a drive through for disobeying a Closed pit lane .

    Perez and Lando got penalties for not leaving enough space , 5 seconds for each event . they looked like racing incidents until you look at Russell and Alonso battle through the same section of few laps side by side always leaving space so it was possible.

    What's not helped is Horner was allowed to say a lot you don't put a wheel in there , but year on year people still get it done there . Even go back to 2019 Very very similar lines between Bottas and Hamilton 2 years ago but done better by Bottas and Hamilton backs out . I'm not saying Max should have backed out anything its just shows what Hamilton got wrong on his lines and F-UP Max's race .

    Hamilton And Bottas' Epic Silverstone Battle | 2019 British Grand Prix - YouTube

    and the fixing of the Car at a Red Flag , everyone gets to do this . the cars must be safe at the restart , it then becomes any car that's been repaired should they start from the Pit lane and the rest do a standing start ..I don't think the teams themselves will go for that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭McFly85


    He didn't deliberately put Max out of the race, but he did deliberately leave him no room to come back in, gambling that he would be level enough for him to claim the corner.

    It's fascinating to see Lewis' reaction coming to terms of being in a proper title fight. It feels like for the last few races it's like he's thought that there was always an external reason for him not being in the mix(RB better suited to city tracks, team orders causing him to lose ground, claiming suspicion over RBs upgrades etc), and on Friday getting pole for the sprint he looked so confident about his chances after the upgrades they brought. So when Max pulled away in the sprint he sounded completely exasperated, for the first time in ages he's facing a car and a driver that are just better right now - so you could see in lap 1 how desperate he was to get ahead of Max, which ultimately caused his poor judgement at copse.

    I am really looking forward to the next race now and hope Max comes out swinging, it really feels like a fight that could go right down to the wire.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,711 ✭✭✭SureYWouldntYa


    The Red Flag period should be a pause of the race, if Hamilton's car needs to be fixed then do it after the race restarts same as if it was the race and no stop

    If someone got damage due to the incident who wasnt involved (eg debris goes flying and rips Mazepin's tyre) then I think repairs should be fair, but Lewis caused the incident so should have to deal with the fallout



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,382 ✭✭✭petes


    I can see the other points of view and I in no way think it was intentional. However, getting a penalty is supposed to be just that, seems it had no effect, you can say that's good driving etc. but wouldn't have been able to do that unless there was a red flag which Hamilton caused I'm not sure how you can say he had better grip than Charles either seeing as he was on older tyres, fact is he took the wrong course of action and the wrong line with a car beside him in front when trying to get by Max, Max went off and I don't see as Horner put it, the penalty matching the crime. I'm more of a fan of LeClerc anyway but that's how I saw it, was a great drive by LeClerc and I think he's as good as a driver as the other 'two'!



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,423 ✭✭✭weisses


    With the move on leclerc Hamilton was a full car with on the inside,actually making the apex .. Would he have been there prior to the collision with max they both would have made that corner ... The tyres had more grip comparison is ludicrous because he was on fresh yellow tyres.. If he lost grip it's because he was off the racing line


    Any more nonsense I can address ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,754 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    Can you just move on and have a debate about the actual incident rather than harp on about something that everyone else has put down to a wind up?

    You asked for examples of the same type of incident about 8 million times (exaggeration) instead of just accepting that your point was made and moving on.

    You need to learn to control the emotions, make a point about the topic and move on man.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭quokula


    That footage is entirely different as the overtaking car was already in the lead going into copse, as is always the case in any overtake attempt there. You don't just stick your front left wheel into the rear right of the car in front at 160+ MPH as there is only one way that will end. A lot of people seem to struggle to understand the dynamics of racing, going in at the angle Hamilton did and entirely missing the apex was in no way a serious overtaking attempt, there is simply no scenario where it could have been successful without either hitting Verstappen, or Verstappen taking evasive action and jumping off the track, which Verstappen was in no way obliged to do as he'd already left far more than a car's width of space, which Hamilton didn't use.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,868 ✭✭✭Joeface


    pretty sure I said Bottas showing how to do it correctly was the footage also said Max didn't have to back out he was clearly a head , that Lewis line was wrong.

    The issue for me is with Horner when he was saying no one over takes there like its almost a rule , when they do . Perez even did it in the race as did Hamilton 2 more times. But doing properly . The sticking the wheel in, there is nothing Hamilton can do at that point to fix it , he is pretty much turned a much as he can on the in car footage . his line is wrong before he gets there so he can never fix it .

    actually the Mercedes, Aston and Redbull team managers are very , I do know what the word is . Toto why are sending emails with drawings FFS , that was as bad as Horner comments , and I kind a get Horner's frustrations he had just lost his lead driver with serious impact .It all just seems so petty and whingy at times .



  • Registered Users Posts: 54,495 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    His manouevre was as much a risk to him as it was to Max. It was a racing incident. No intent to take Max out, unless people want to believe that Lewis intentionally put himself in real danger of being taken out, or worse.

    I have watched it a few times. Did Lewis steer into Max? I don't think he did. Max gave him a bit of room, but Max should have made sure he himself was clear and safe. Two of them in it, travelling at 200 mph very close to each other. It is racing.

    Post edited by walshb on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭McFly85


    The manoeuvre was of more risk to Max - we've seen before that front left to rear right, generally the car in front comes off worse. Also in this situation, Max is not obliged to do any more than he actually did. He gave Lewis room on the inside, which Lewis chose not to use to make it difficult for him to take the corner. Also it looks like Max wasn't 100% sure of Lewis' position at that point and assumed he would have been closer to the edge.

    It was never Lewis' corner as Max was ahead of him the whole time, and he is the only one in that situation that has a complete picture of where both cars are - he was obliged to back out and give the line to Max, but gambled and lost(but also succeeded).



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,382 ✭✭✭petes


    I actually think Hamilton was desperate to get by Max as he knew he might take off so took the wrong line in which was a mistake. Can't pull out of it after that but the mistake was already done, Max gave him room but Hamilton taking that line before the corner caused the collision.



  • Registered Users Posts: 44,881 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    i don't think the driver causing the incident should be treated differently if you are allowing other cars to repair/replace.

    THe driver causing the incident should be punished according to the rules by the stewards - beyond that they should be treated the same as any other driver, imo.

    I also do wonder about people saying the driver should be punished according to the outcome of a crash or racing indient. If Max had gone into some nice runoff and rejoined the track, should hamilton have received no punishment?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,382 ✭✭✭petes


    But he didn't go in to some nice run off, his car was borked before he even left the track! The penalty should have been more severe because of the collision and not the outcome, but hey, just my opinion anyway :)



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,612 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    I haven't commented myself on it yet, but regarding the punishment fitting the crime. In my view, yes the outcome of the incident should be reflected in the punishment! Worst case for Lewis was they were both out, which would do very little harm to his title race anyway… so taking a stupid manoeuvre like that was a low risk high reward for him!


    Again like I said earlier, I’m 100% of the view that he consciously left his car where it was knowing Max was done for if he didn’t give way….. for me, that needs to be punished appropriately!



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    As a Red Bull fan, I am still furious about yesterday. Max had a 33 point lead in the WDC. I thought Lewis would need to beat him on track at least two to three times to reduce that gap.

    It's just so unfair that you can cause an accident like that and destroy Max's race, his car and leave him in hospital. He'll likely have to take penalties later in the season now as well. Meanwhile, Lewis benefits from the Red flag and the 10 second penalty has no impact at all. He caused the crash and will greatly benefit from it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭Panrich



    Exactly. Hamilton is able to see where he is putting his front left wheel in his direct field of vision whereas Verstappen can't see an impending contact on his right rear without taking his eye off the corner at full speed. I know people will talk about having mirrors and how they are aware of where other cars are relative to them instinctively as well but we're talking milliseconds here.

    Hamilton would have had a split second before contact to know that contact was imminent but Verstappen would have been hit before he realised what was happening. Big difference to outcome and in this case Hamilton was able to keep his car under control but Verstappen was a passenger the instant that he was hit.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,060 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    This is the most sensible comment I have read. It was simply a racing incident. If the positions had been switched Verstappen would have done likewise. These guys couldn't care less about not sticking a wheel up the inside at Copse. They will just go for it. The reactions of Horner and Marko - and to a lesser extent, Max - afterwards were over the top. Why should he not celebrate winning his home Grand Prix in what, I thought, was quite a restrained and appropriate fashion.



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