Medical apartheid, two tier society, segregation, discrimination take your pick.

All are pretty apt phrases to describe this latest authoritarian travesty.

In before all the "discrimination is good", "it isn't coercion", "comparing this to apartheid is wrong" crowd 🙄

Already seen a lot of it on social media, the people saying how it is "just temporary until everyone gets vaccinated".

Kindof forgetting that the vaccine is supposed to be optional at this point, as are all the talking heads on our MSM outlets.

There are a few dissenting voices, several businesses refusing to reopen indoor dining because of the segregation, others refusing to reopen at all in protest, several protests by business owners and customers against this.

Delighted to see a little less immediate capitulation from people than most gov measures of the past year and a half have induced, but needs to be more still.

EDIT - and as noted when this was voted for by our wonderful MEPs it was stated to never be used domestically.

Gee, what a surprise...

Apartheid(outside SA) - segregation on grounds other than race. ie "gender apartheid". From the Oxford English dictionary.

Thus "Medical Apartheid" is accurate.

If something is optional I don't think it should be then used to segregate society.

Particularly with something as divisive as the covid vaccine(it's experimental/emergency use authorization status in several countries, it's questionable efficacy with variants, it's questionable longevity, blanket immunity from legal action for manufacturers, etc).

Opting on or out should not mean you get treated like a lesser person in society, ie you are forced to sit outdoors while your friend can sit indoors.

No matter what way you cut it that goes well beyond anything approaching fair or equal treatment, it rises to coercion to get people to take the "optional" vaccine.

It has begun as an international travel cert, now being used domestically for restaurants, what's next, no going into shops unless you have your cert?

No entering public buildings?

Reduction in access to public services?

If the consequences for not taking the vaccine were natural, ie potentially worse symptoms if you did get covid, rather than legislative(indoor dining, travel, etc) then I could agree with you that they come with consequences, but in this case the consequences are overwhelmingly legislative.

On the non conformist front, ask yourself is there any possibility that someone could have a good reason to choose not to be vaccinated?

If so, then I think you should respect their decision, similarly to me not standing with a banner outside the vaccination centres.

I don't care what medical decisions you make for yourself, but don't try and enforce those decisions on others.

Yup. And assuming they aren't vaccinated nor can they after their shift has finished eat or drink indoors without one, in the same place.

They can eat their break meal indoors, but not any other kind.

For safety, apparently? 🙄

I think apartheid, or segregation if you prefer, always has, and should in this case too, have negative connotations.

Regardless of intent it has created a two tier society, placing people on different footings based on an arbitrary decision with very questionable underpinning logic.

By "trying to get rid of this thing" you mean eradicate covid then that is not possible. It will become like the flu, or any other number of viruses that currently exist in our world. There is zero chance of getting rid of covid in a permanent sense, nor has anyone put forward a proposal for same.

Thus there will be no "after this thing is gone". It now exists and thus is here to stay. The narrative has never included a zero covid island, let alone zero covid world, because it is not possible. Even those vaccinated can get covid, so there is no getting rid of even if everyone gets vaccinated(which will never happen).

What would you consider "legit reasons" for choosing not to take a, again supposedly optional, vaccine?

So absent a medical condition preventing someone getting the vaccine then everyone else must?

So anyone who, for religious/cultural reasons or just skepticism of the, again, emergency use authorization vaccine must suck it up and take it?

If it won't end covid(vaccinated people can still get covid, spread it and have died from it) then why must they?

Also, from what you've said it more seems like you would be fine with forced vaccinations for all, with an exemption for those with medical conditions preventing same.

That is an utterly despicable position to hold.

This all makes zero sense to me, why can't people accept responsibility for themselves and stop trying to force others into doing what they want.

You didn't object to my points about eradicating covid, so bearing that in mind when does this medical apartheid end?

Never is the answer, until the next big boogeyman appears.

I said based on what you were saying, which was that the legit reason for not taking the vaccine was a medical condition.

Thus the logical conclusion being that no other reason was legit. Wrong? Perhaps, but based on your comments correct.

Despicable I think sums it up pretty nicely when, again based on your comments, the only reason you countenance for not getting the vaccine is medical.

Free will not a valid thing anymore?

Playing ones part goes very little ways at this point. Even people who swallowed every piece of government/nphet propaganda from the start is now questioning things, including this latest segregation of society. This is the same tripe as "wear a mask to protect everyone else". Utter crap. You want to actually protect yourself? Stop relying on others to do what you think is the right thing and wear a properly rated mask, with eye protection(droplets), and be responsible for your own safety. Same thing at play here, the vaccine being touted as protecting others is rubbish, it is to protect(dubious, as mentioned) yourself.

So why try and coerce it onto others?

Religious - LDS, several sects of Islam & Judaism, even the Catholic church have flipflopped on vaccines depending on their contents or perceived contents.

Cultural - Post Tuskegee and similar atrocious activities a lot of African-Americans are very much vaccine sceptics, as are ~40% of white evangelical Protestants, 25% of all Americans, 28% of white mainline Protestants and 27% of nonwhite Protestants. Native Americans too are significant skeptics. Numbers are hard to find for Ireland because of all those lovely covid news payments media outlets are receiving, but extrapolate the numbers out to here. Any group, including in Ireland, who have suffered at the hands of the government tend towards hesitancy with regards to this vaccine, for very good historical reasons.

Even the Journal's poll(particularly pro government messaging) had nearly 53% of people saying everyone should be allowed indoors, regardless of vaccination. Speaks miles that on a very pro gov site's poll the majority are against segregation based on vaccine status.

And once again, if covid will be around forever then what point is the vaccine for everyone, particularly those without underlying co-morbidities and a healthy immune system.

For a virus with a ~98% survival rate it is astounding that these measures have gone as far as they have, and only getting worse long after there is data present to back up a significantly more moderate apporoach.

But the vaccine, as I stated, still allows you to get, spread, and die from covid!

The vaccine is not the silver bullet we have been originally told it is. The official line is now usually "it may lessen your chances of getting covid, and may lessen the symptoms if you do get it".

Thus why should people who don't want the vaccine be forced & coerced into it by denying them equal status with those who have it?

If you are so confident in the vaccine protecting you then why do others need to have it?

Same argument as to why people wear pathetically uncertified "fashion masks", which say on their packaging that they provide no benefit against covid 19, and insist that they are doing it to protect others?!

You aren't, you are simply regurgitating the same rhetoric that has been fed to you.

If you actually wanted to be safe you would wear a proper certified mask, with eye protection, and decon yourself, your groceries, your mask, etc after every trip into the outside world. But no, the virtue signalling fashion masks have it covered lol.

And those restrictions are ok are they?

Religions - there are several who explicitly refuse all vaccinations, others which refuse some, others still which are refusing this, see my previous answer and do your own research outside the echo chamber.

Cultural - ok, so the aftermath of distrust in governments based on the heinous and atrocious acts they have perpetrated leading into being covid(not vaccinations as a whole) skeptic is not a culture? Actually it is, a culture of distrust with a solid base in reacting to past disgraceful acts by the same gov that says now that you can trust it, everything is fine!

Not sure how many Thalidomide victims are still around and kicking in Ireland but I'd be sure based on their experiences that they would be skeptical too, and with good reason.

Or in your opinion are they just "vax skeptic" too? 🙄

On the segregation front I'm sure everyone who has been discriminated against because you feel it to be a "practical approach" completely understands your lack of humanity, which I'm sure extends right up to the point where you are the one being discriminated against.

What other segregation would you be in favour of, since it it a practical approach?

Shopping? Public services? Outdoor dining? Public spaces?

Where exactly does your line extend to, their front doors?

Indeed, never in the course of history has a country which has segregated people come off well after the fact.

Native Americans moved onto reservations & the Japanese in WW2 internment camps in the US, the first concentration camps by the Brits in the Boer war, the Nazis in WW2 with Jews, gypsies, ethnic minorities, religious orders, etc, the London Cage(only learned about that recently) by the British in WW2, the various African implementations(SA in particular in recent history).

I am completely in favour of anyone who wants, using that free will that Feisar disregards, to get the vaccine.

In fact I agree that some people may indeed benefit significantly from any increased protection it may provide.

However similarly I cannot agree with people who choose not to get it being legislated against in an attempt to increase vaccine uptake.

With this article I can only imagine the next steps being planned currently:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40343345.html

"Looking at 12-16 year olds" 🤮🤮🤮

I wonder will there be a push to get that age group vaccinated before schools reopen, and denying places to those who refuse to get the vaccine. That's my prediction for the future anyway.

A lot of business owners are actually refusing & delaying their reopening because they disagree with the vaccine segregation legislation.

Several are only doing outdoor dining for all. Were I in their position I wouldn't be discriminating against anyone, regardless of their private medical decisions.

My sympathy about your & your wife's predicament. Several friends had children in the course of the past year and a half and it was heartbreaking to see the fathers left outside and not being able to accompany their wife. That was and is utterly wrong and received a significant outcry and should never have been allowed to happen. On the traveler front might I suspect they didn't have the security numbers to prevent them?

Having seen their weddings and similar in marquees and guards leaning on their cars refusing to do anything I can well believe that your experience rankled too.

However in that case you were evidently treated differently than other group, and that rankled? Same thing is happening here realistically.

Everyone should be treated the same, not like second class citizens because of some arbitrary law, whether that covers being a traveler or being vaccinated.

On the final "being overly dramatic" front.

If I had been shouting on here a year ago about vaccine passports people would have called me a conspiracy theorist.

I was thus labelled several times over the past year and a half by family, friends and of course complete strangers on the internet. Among other such colourful things as "you want nurses to die" and being labelled a fascist too.

However since a lot of those "conspiracy theories" have now come true I am making my predictions for the future.

And you did not answer that last either. Is just discriminating against people with regards to travel and indoor dining ok?

Should it, in your view, extend further?

Where does your line end?

I am genuinely curious, since by your own admission you were discriminated against because you were not a traveler and thus could not accompany your wife. That was wrong, as is this form of discrimination, the only difference now being this doesn't affect you, and relates to dining.

So where does it end?

Dining? Schools? Shops? Filling stations? Domestic travel?

The devil in the details so, define all the luxuries? 😉

Not trying to be facetious with that but realistically that is an impossible thing to define with any measure of consistency?

And even if you did manage it then why should some be elevated above others?

Whether you look at it like a, and I am cringing as I type this, "vaccine bonus", or an unvaccinated penalty the result is the same - a two tier society.

I just cannot come around to the viewpoint that any kind of two tier society, regardless of the details of the segregation, is acceptable.

Hell, even if it was does that then mean there could be unvaccinated only restaurants which do indoor dining, etc?

Surely in that case if people are unwilling to mix with unvaccinated people then they only need to avoid those places.

If we are going the segregation route then is that the next step down the line? In other segregated countries those who were on either side had places they could go and the other side could not, will that happen here?

I rather doubt it because the stated goal is to get everyone to take the vaccine, so there will be no equaling of the playing field in that regard.