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Should the government pay for sex-change operations?

13567…16

Comments

  • #62
    Effects
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    steve06 wrote: »
    No I'm not saying that. I'm saying someone who's had a sex change to become a woman will never have the 'tools' to have sex properly with a man or woman. It will never work as good as what they had, a lot of post op people can't even have sex ffs.


    I'm not ignorant. I understand they must feel better in their new body, but it's false, it's a body that will never sexually work properly. A lot of the documentaries about it show the person happy in their new body, but they're still very lonely.

    You seem to base your opinions on thinking a sex change is all about being able to have sex as a post op transexual. You have a penis and testices, is the fact that you can have intercourse with a woman all that defines you as a man?


  • #63
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Links234 wrote: »
    a lot of post op people can't even have sex?! where did you get that idea?? that's a load of rubbish
    female - male: in order to have sex you have to get an inflatable implant, and that's only if there's enough skin to actually create a decent penis in the first place where there's often not.
    Links234 wrote: »
    In the case of a vagina being made, once it's fully healed, it's fully capable of orgasm and sexual stimulation.
    And exercises with insertion objects are needed a few times a day so it basically doesn't close up. Again the amount of skin used determines how deep it is, and if penetration will be viable.
    Links234 wrote: »
    you're assuming that just because you have a set of sexual organs, that you can or want to actually use them.
    Human nature no?
    Effects wrote: »
    You seem to base your opinions on thinking a sex change is all about being able to have sex as post op transexual. You have a penis and testices, is the fact that you can have intercourse with a woman all that defines you as a man?
    No, I'm just stating the difficulties afterwards regarding sex.

    Anyway who cares, it's an operation that the state shouldn't fund. It's cosmetic and where there's a will there's a way, if they want it they can work to afford it.


  • #64
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    steve06 wrote: »
    I watched a show about it on Discovery one day and it was weird... A guy got a sex change to become a girl, and then became a lesbian. A girl got a sex change to become a guy, and then became gay. Would it not have been easier to stay as they were as they were after the opposite sex anyway?
    Wow, thats is outstoundingly ignorant.


  • #65
    twinQuins
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭twinQuins


    Dean09 wrote: »
    Exactly, they're MEDICAL proffessionals. Wanting a sex change for whatever reason is clearly a psychological issue that should be resolved in ways other than a serious and costly operation.

    You do know there's overlap between the two fields, right?


  • #66
    The_Minister
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Links234 wrote: »
    a lot of post op people can't even have sex?! where did you get that idea?? that's a load of rubbish

    In the case of a vagina being made, once it's fully healed, it's fully capable of orgasm and sexual stimulation. the only time when someone looses sensitivity is in the rare case when something goes wrong with the surgery or they don't keep up proper aftercare. but generally, they will work properly sexually.

    you're assuming that just because you have a set of sexual organs, that you can or want to actually use them. and that's not always true when something feels so uncomfortable and unnatural to you.

    What about women who become men?
    Are the new penes capable of erection?


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  • #67
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 18,023 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    Dean09 wrote: »
    Exactly, they're MEDICAL proffessionals. Wanting a sex change for whatever reason is clearly a psychological issue that should be resolved in ways other than a serious and costly operation.
    But the psychologists recognise that their gender should be changed. What do you expect instead? Drug them into a stupor so they no longer feel alienated by their own body? It's not a question of "Chin up, have a lollipop instead".


  • #68
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,439 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    Morkarleth wrote: »
    You do know there's overlap between the two fields, right?
    Yeah I do know that of course but I'm simply trying to get the point across that the operations should not be funded by the tax-payer. If they want the operation why not save up and pay for it themselves.


  • #69
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Dean09 wrote: »
    Exactly, they're MEDICAL proffessionals. Wanting a sex change for whatever reason is clearly a psychological issue that should be resolved in ways other than a serious and costly operation.

    but it's NOT a psychological issue


  • #70
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,191 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    No, the government should not pay for the op. Unless there's an obvious danger to the person's life, such as a suicide risk. And even then, I'd say the money should be spent on counselling before it is on surgery


  • #71
    TelePaul
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭TelePaul


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Wow, thats is outstoundingly ignorant.

    It's not really. It's an observation based on logic, not on a cognitive understanding. And the op has since capitulated in this regard.


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  • #72
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    TelePaul wrote: »
    No, you said you were offended by the fact that our people don't share your view on what is a remarkably complex issue:

    Also, at the risk of opening a whole other can of worms, you have to consider scarcity - resources are finite, the HSE's particularly so. Prioritisation is logical if not ideal.

    I didn't say I was offended at all

    I have also never said that resources in the health system are not a problem - as I already said above - resources can be changed around so for example you try and get the SRS surgery cheaper or you can try and ensure that the HSE spends less on administration - However to decide that one person is more worthy of healthcare then another is a human rights abuse in my view

    As I already linked to Fiona deLondras has an excellent article on it

    http://www.humanrights.ie/index.php/2010/07/26/gender-reassignment-surgery-limited-resources-and-positive-results-for-society/

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #73
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    My name is URL wrote: »
    No, the government should not pay for the op. Unless there's an obvious danger to the person's life, such as a suicide risk. And even then, I'd say the money should be spent on counselling before it is on surgery
    In some cases there is a suicidal risk and what if the person has been counselled to the point where they need the operation?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #74
    gcgirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭gcgirl


    Eh no the mere talk if a strap on usually means one is bisexual
    Links234 wrote: »
    so you're saying that a lesbian couple don't have the "tools" need to have sex with each other?
    you're being remarkably silly


  • #75
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,439 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    ixoy wrote: »
    But the psychologists recognise that their gender should be changed. What do you expect instead? Drug them into a stupor so they no longer feel alienated by their own body? It's not a question of "Chin up, have a lollipop instead".
    I understand that to these people its a serious issue. And dont get me wrong, I have nothing against anyone who wants a sex change. Its their life they can do as they please. All I'm saying is I dont think it should be funded by the tax-payer.
    What if I turned around and said I'm a black man trapped in a white mans body? And psychologists said I should undergo an op to turn me black. Should the average joe soap be paying for that too?


  • #76
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    steve06 wrote: »
    female - male: in order to have sex you have to get an inflatable implant, and that's only if there's enough skin to actually create a decent penis in the first place where there's often not.


    And exercises with insertion objects are needed a few times a day so it basically doesn't close up. Again the amount of skin used determines how deep it is, and if penetration will be viable.

    none of that means that the person can't experience orgasm and sexual pleasure.
    steve06 wrote: »
    Human nature no?

    no, I can't even stand to be touched down there, so no matter how much I may have tried to have an intimate relationship the way I am now, I just can't.


  • #77
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Dean09 wrote: »
    I understand that to these people its a serious issue. And dont get me wrong, I have nothing against anyone who wants a sex change. Its their life they can do as they please. All I'm saying is I dont think it should be funded by the tax-payer.
    What if I turned around and said I'm a black man trapped in a white mans body? And psychologists said I should undergo an op to turn me black. Should the average joe soap be paying for that too?

    Psychologists wouldn't say that because being a black man trapped in a white mans body is not a recognised condition

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #78
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,191 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    In some cases there is a suicidal risk and what if the person has been counselled to the point where they need the operation?

    I think that if proper counseling fails to stop people contemplating suicide and helps them live their lives until their in a position to fund their own surgery, then there are bigger problems at play than just gender related ones


  • #79
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    My name is URL wrote: »
    I think that if proper counseling fails to stop people contemplating suicide and helps them live their lives until their in a position to fund their own surgery, then there are bigger problems at play than just gender related ones
    but what if the counselling doesn't?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #80
    gcgirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭gcgirl


    Right lads imaging waking up your boner is gone and you can't see past your tits hell it is !


  • #81
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    by the way, I wouldn't even want to have the government pay for my operation!
    because if I wanted to get it payed for, I'd HAVE to get it done in the UK, and I'd much rather save up and get the op with one of the better surgeons in America or maybe Thailand


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  • #82
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,439 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    Psychologists wouldn't say that because being a black man trapped in a white mans body is not a recognised condition
    That cant be a valid argument though. What if myself and 100 other people said the same thing....would it get recognised and then funded???


  • #83
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    urgh, guys seriously, read this thread towards the end: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055978601

    there's no comparison with "black man trapped in a white man's body" that's just a silly straw man argument


  • #84
    TelePaul
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭TelePaul


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    I didn't say I was offended at all
    I believe you said that you found such views 'distasteful'.
    Johnnymcg wrote: »

    I have also never said that resources in the health system are not a problem - as I already said above - resources can be changed around so for example you try and get the SRS surgery cheaper or you can try and ensure that the HSE spends less on administration

    I think there's a great deal the HSE could do with a limitless budget. There's probably a great deal the HSE could do with current resources and a more stringent approach to management accounting. Unfortunately, this isn't really in keeping with the reality of the situation.


  • #85
    DB10
    Site Banned Posts: 2,719 ✭✭✭DB10


    Fecking hell, and you wonder where our money is going to.

    Things like this are only the tip of the ice berg, as we seen with the expenses scandal.

    And yet FF will still be around next year...


  • #86
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,191 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    but what if the counselling doesn't?

    I don't know. What usually happens when a psychologist deems somebody to be a threat to themselves regardless of the counseling they have received?

    I'm not trying to say that people should be refused surgery, just helped to realise that it's up to themselves to get to a position where they have the means of paying for it


  • #87
    Chuchoter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Chuchoter


    22 sex changes are hardly going to pay for every deaf child in Ireland. Thats a stupid thing to say. In reality a sex change provides greater quality of life and better economic output than 3 months of chemo, so lets get rid of chemo. Its attacking a tiny group of people who don't cost a huge amount of money just to make him look good 'taking care of the poor deaf kids'.

    If he REALLY wanted to save some money, he'd throw the bed blockers who refuse to go into nursing homes out of the A&Es, but thats not nearly as cute.

    Also at gcgirl: Expert on lesbians now are we? Strap-ons don't make you bisexual, if a girl wants to go have sex with a man, she'd go do it, thats just stupid.


  • #88
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    TelePaul wrote: »

    I think there's a great deal the HSE could do with a limitless budget. There's probably a great deal the HSE could do with current resources and a more stringent approach to management accounting. Unfortunately, this isn't really in keeping with the reality of the situation.

    I wasn't talking about the HSE having a limitless budget at all I was saying that within their current resources they could actually fund both by shopping around and attempting to reduce the extortionate costs within their administration Do you think that Gender Identity Disorder is some sort of luxury for boom times, but now we can only deal with “real” issues?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #89
    storm2811
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭storm2811


    I didn't know the state funded sex changes,personally I think it could be better if they were partially funded,say half or 3/4 of the price would be funded.
    They should still be able to get their ops yes,but people in more need should be treated first.
    A person who is transgender does not really need the op immediately.


  • #90
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    storm2811 wrote: »
    I didn't know the state funded sex changes,personally I think it could be better if they were partially funded,say half or 3/4 of the price would be funded.
    They should still be able to get their ops yes,but people in more need should be treated first.
    A person who is transgender does not really need the op immediately.
    Do they not?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • #91
    Wazdakka
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,467 ✭✭✭Wazdakka


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    Do they not?

    No.


    Well at least from the general consensus in this thread, and I believe the majority of Irish people.
    If the majority want it / don't want it, it should happen... Isn't that the way it's supposed to work?

    I think that the HSE paying for these operations will be considered by the masses as a "loophole" and they will probably want it closed now that it's widely known about.

    It mightn't represent the beliefs of everyone, and may insult some people.
    But that's the world we live in.


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