Are Irish women too prudish around other women?

parker kent · 06-01-2011 02:36PM

Jelly2 wrote: »

On this point, I think that we are going to have to disagree, because in my profession, you write precisely what you mean, or you will be called out on it. Otherwise, generalisations render the specifics of evidence and argument meaningless. 'He' would never do when 'he' alone is not meant, for example. And I don't see why it should be any different in an internet forum. But anyway...:)

I think that I see what you mean by your use of the 'neighbours' line now, although I wouldn't be certain it was a principal reason - but neither of us can prove or disprove that, I suppose.
Thanks for engaging!:D

Just to point out that in a legal document like I mentioned there will be a section stating that "he" actually means "he and she" etc. That was more a silly example than a proper example. I am in a profession that likes attention to detail too!

Jelly2 · 06-01-2011 02:38PM

parker kent wrote: »

Just to point out that in a legal document like I mentioned there will be a section stating that "he" actually means "he and she" etc. That was more a silly example than a proper example. I am in a profession that likes attention to detail too!

No problem!

pickarooney · 06-01-2011 02:51PM

metrovelvet wrote: »

But Irish people imo are more self concious about everything always worrying about what the neighbors think and what other people thing, its a weird kind of self centredness or maybe symptomatic of a judgemental culture, in that the neighbors are judging you? People are judging you?

Yet Irish people will have no compunction about being seen roaring drunk in public or in the company of their colleagues, an idea that would horrify most southern Europeans. Meanwhile liberal countries like Spain, the USA and Brazil spend billions on plastic surgery compared with the relatively modest outlay in this area by northern Europeans (you could argue they're worried about being judged for having a face-lift, I suppose!

) I don't think it's fair to isolate one aspect of a society's behaviour and hold it up as proof of a judgemental culture.

Jelly2 · 06-01-2011 02:54PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Yet Irish people will have no compunction about being seen roaring drunk in public or in the company of their colleagues, an idea that would horrify most southern Europeans. Meanwhile liberal countries like Spain, the USA and Brazil spend billions on plastic surgery compared with the relatively modest outlay in this area by northern Europeans (you could argue they're worried about being judged for having a face-lift, I suppose! ) I don't think it's fair to isolate one aspect of a society's behaviour and hold it up as proof of a judgemental culture.

Refreshing observation! Self-judgement and societal controls are not something exlusive to our society. In some areas, maybe we are not judgmental enough.

Enkidu · 06-01-2011 02:54PM

Wibbs wrote: »

I agree. TBH when I see "de church" being wheeled out as a reason I do tend to switch off to the rest of the argument trailing in it's wake.

I think that's because the argument is underdeveloped. It is known why, historically, Catholicism developed into a more oppressive form in Ireland, but they are long complicated reasons. More something for the History and Heritage forum.

Wibbs wrote: »

Me I'd be with sam34 on this. Privacy. And TBH some people just need to cover up. I really dont want to be looking at peanut willies and arses that look like they've fainted thanks very much. If you do, then cool. I dont see it as "liberating" though. Like sexuality it should be choice and not just an oft childish reaction to a less open past.

I agree with you. I don't particularly think nude beaches are liberating (I also don't really have a problem with them). However in the original context of the thread what was being discussed is changing in same gender changing rooms, e.t.c. I would have to say that there is a noticeable difference between Ireland and other countries I've been to in this regard, even the UK, where people will change much more openly. In fact even that is a silly way to put it, they just change.

Of course it doesn't really matter if people don't want to be naked or see others naked due to privacy,e.t.c. it's a fairly benign thing. However I don't really see the harm in being in the nip in a changing room for a minute or so.

Where I think it goes a bit over the top isn't so much for total nudity, but in finding topless sunbathing and public breastfeeding to be immoral, which I think is a bit over the top.(Not that anybody in this thread has said this)

Dudess wrote: »

I don't buy the "We're less tolerant of toplessness, stripping" etc stuff either - firstly, have you not SEEN how a lot of Irish girls dress when going out? They'll catch their deaths! :pac: (not dissing them, just saying they hardly have a problem with baring flesh, if only in certain contexts).

The funny thing is that in Spain, where women go topless on the beach, that dress style is much less common. I think it's just down to each cultures complicated fabric of what is and isn't appropriate.

Enkidu · 06-01-2011 02:57PM

pickarooney wrote: »

I don't think it's fair to isolate one aspect of a society's behaviour and hold it up as proof of a judgemental culture.

Very true. A shocking thing about Spain is that everyday clothing is still linked to Civil War politics, i.e. there are left-wing and right-wing ways of dressing.

Jelly2 · 06-01-2011 03:00PM

Enkidu wrote: »

I think that's because the argument is underdeveloped. It is known why, historically, Catholicism developed into a more oppressive form in Ireland, but they are long complicated reasons. More something for the History and Heritage forum.]

So right; I've avoided tackling it too much here, because (some sympathy with Parker Kent) here, it would take too long to unpick and explain. I can't imagine having a debate about the effect of rigorism and Jansenism on Irish clerical training here, for example! Where would you start!:)

Quote [Where I think it goes a bit over the top isn't so much for total nudity, but in finding topless sunbathing and public breastfeeding to be immoral, which I think is a bit over the top.(Not that anybody in this thread has said this) ]

I'm actually surprised the breast feeding issue hasn't come up, because I have seen it arise elsewhere, with dramatically different views expressed. I was at my friend's recently, and she actually covered up when feeding her baby. I found this very surprising but didn't give any sign obviously. My other friends have fed their babies in committee meetings at work without any cover.

parker kent · 06-01-2011 03:09PM

Unless we all write dissertations, we will all be leaving out important aspects and some of the origins of our arguments. Maybe I'll do another masters and do a thesis on the behaviour of Irish Women in changing rooms :pac:

Enkidu · 06-01-2011 03:13PM

parker kent wrote: »

Unless we all write dissertations, we will all be leaving out important aspects and some of the origins of our arguments. Maybe I'll do another masters and do a thesis on the behaviour of Irish Women in changing rooms :pac:

Get on it right now young man!:)

pickarooney · 06-01-2011 03:59PM

Enkidu wrote: »

Very true. A shocking thing about Spain is that everyday clothing is still linked to Civil War politics, i.e. there are left-wing and right-wing ways of dressing.

You get that here too. I live opposite the Law and Arts faculties of the university here and you can instantly spot which students are studying in which based on what they're wearing. It's quite amusing as most of the kids in both schools are from affluent backgrounds so even the raggle-taggle hippies in Liberal Arts are wearing carefully selected brand-names with their keffiyehs and bovver boots.

Gone OT a bit, sorry.

metrovelvet · 06-01-2011 04:12PM

pickarooney wrote: »

You get that here too. I live opposite the Law and Arts faculties of the university here and you can instantly spot which students are studying in which based on what they're wearing. It's quite amusing as most of the kids in both schools are from affluent backgrounds so even the raggle-taggle hippies in Liberal Arts are wearing carefully selected brand-names with their keffiyehs and bovver boots.

Gone OT a bit, sorry.

You get that in NYC too. Particularly in the 30k a year NYU where the students wander around the lower east side in Che Guevara shirts.

Ickle Magoo · 06-01-2011 05:14PM

Jelly2 wrote: »

I'm actually surprised the breast feeding issue hasn't come up, because I have seen it arise elsewhere, with dramatically different views expressed. I was at my friend's recently, and she actually covered up when feeding her baby. I found this very surprising but didn't give any sign obviously. My other friends have fed their babies in committee meetings at work without any cover.

I mentioned it earlier but didn't elaborate. I remember a particularly colourful discussion on another forum regarding breast-feeding where there was not an insignificant number of posters of both sex arguing that it should only be done at home - and if out and about, mothers should find a nice toilet cubicle in which to feed in...to say I was flabbergasted was an understatement. :eek:

Jelly2 · 06-01-2011 05:23PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I mentioned it earlier but didn't elaborate. I remember a particularly colourful discussion on another forum regarding breast-feeding where there was not an insignificant number of posters of both sex arguing that it should only be done at home - and if out and about, mothers should find a nice toilet cubicle in which to feed in...to say I was flabbergasted was an understatement. :eek:

Not surprised. Some people seem to think it akin to peeing in public!

I do think the objection to it can be somewhat different to the issue of changing rooms etc, which was the opener in this thread. The objection might be partly to do with the reminder of reproduction, sex, etc, but for some it seems to be to do with the expression of milk itself from the body. Bodily emissions produce strange reactions of 'icky' from a lot of people! But then so does bodily ingestion of food - I've known several people who objected strongly to eating in public or to seeing others do it (I mean outside designated eating areas), claiming that their distaste was not to do with it being uncouth, but to it being 'gross' to see.

axer · 06-01-2011 05:25PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I mentioned it earlier but didn't elaborate. I remember a particularly colourful discussion on another forum regarding breast-feeding where there was not an insignificant number of posters of both sex arguing that it should only be done at home - and if out and about, mothers should find a nice toilet cubicle in which to feed in...to say I was flabbergasted was an understatement. :eek:

So where should one draw the line as to what is acceptable?
Cant see why someone should have a problem with changing in a dressing room, breastfeeding, changing in public, swimming or getting some sun naked at the beach...as long as they are not doing anything sexual then I dont see an issue - but really where is the line?

EDIT: but then again that is me - I am used to nude sauna's etc in Germany so don't see nakedness as anything bad and have no problem being naked. So where's your line?

EDIT 2: Also this is not just directed at you Ickle Magoo.

Ickle Magoo · 06-01-2011 05:53PM

Jelly2 wrote: »

Not surprised. Some people seem to think it akin to peeing in public!

I do think the objection to it can be somewhat different to the issue of changing rooms etc, which was the opener in this thread. The objection might be partly to do with the reminder of reproduction, sex, etc, but for some it seems to be to do with the expression of milk itself from the body. Bodily emissions produce strange reactions of 'icky' from a lot of people! But then so does bodily ingestion of food - I've known several people who objected strongly to eating in public or to seeing others do it (I mean outside designated eating areas), claiming that their distaste was not to do with it being uncouth, but to it being 'gross' to see.

The complaints I've heard are mostly to do with seeing breasts tbh - not sure how fluids are relevant when the breast is being suckled, there is no liquid to be seen. There is never an eye blinked at a bottle of milk so presumably the issue is the vessel it comes in?

I do remember one memorable trip home where my husband was going through customs at Dublin airport - he had a bottle of expressed milk in his hand luggage and the customs officials asked him to drink some to ensure it was nothing flammable/explosive...the look on some faces was priceless - not least his! :pac:

axer wrote: »

So where should one draw the line as to what is acceptable?

I'm a bit like you - nudity and sexuality can be separated.

Jelly2 · 06-01-2011 05:54PM

Googled out of interest, and found this website - seems the issue of breastfeeding is a live one everywhere in Europe - in the sense that it is encouraged officially, but has to be done very discreetly, and is subject to some popular disagreement. It also reminded me that I read an article recently about how younger women in France and Spain are 'covering up' on beaches much more now, and rejecting what they see as the 'false' freedoms of feminism.

http://www.007b.com/public-breastfeeding-europe.php

Ickle Magoo · 06-01-2011 05:57PM

007 breasts?! I'm sure that's a new one on Mr Fleming.

:D

Jelly2 · 06-01-2011 05:58PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

The complaints I've heard are mostly to do with seeing breasts tbh - not sure how fluids are relevant when the breast is being suckled, there is no liquid to be seen. There is never an eye blinked at a bottle of milk so presumably the issue is the vessel it comes in?

Well, I don't share their aversion, but I think even the thought of milk being sucked from the body was yuck. I think. Hard to work out exactly, I would say that rationality didn't really come into it!

Reward · 06-01-2011 07:15PM

Some thoughts on this today

In the Kibbitz experiment, it was women that instated modesty and monogamy three generations in ie. without the influence of media or religion. Its women that practice relational aggression on other women for not conforming ie. "slut shaming" etc. Women that, as I noticed in both the catholic and muslim world play a large role in policing and watch others for signs of non conformity and ostracise non conformists with relational aggression, and the most modern sex negative ideologies that we are threatened by have been created entirely by women in which relational aggression toward non conformists and calls for draconian sex laws are not uncommon.

Point being is that women are entirely capable of creating and maintaining sexual oppression and prudishness without the influence of catholicism.

06-01-2011 07:24PM

Wow this has got very pedantic and a bit off the point .....its all very complicated.

parker kent · 06-01-2011 07:30PM

I'd agree it has got pedantic and we all got caught up in different arguments (a general Boards gripe is that small posts are analysed like 20,000 word theses).

So to return to my original point, as a guy who has experienced no such issues at all in changing rooms, I am still surprised that there are such differences between male and female changing rooms. There are lads that use hair dryers on their bodies whilst chatting away to the lads around them in my local gym, so the idea of girls getting changed behind a towel in a changing full of other women is a bit of a shock!

Reward · 06-01-2011 08:23PM

Jelly2 wrote: »

Googled out of interest, and found this website - seems the issue of breastfeeding is a live one everywhere in Europe - in the sense that it is encouraged officially, but has to be done very discreetly, and is subject to some popular disagreement. It also reminded me that I read an article recently about how younger women in France and Spain are 'covering up' on beaches much more now, and rejecting what they see as the 'false' freedoms of feminism.

http://www.007b.com/public-breastfeeding-europe.php

I remember the attack on bare breasts in France as being started by feminists, feminist groups were putting pressure on sarkozi. Personally, I think its really down to jealously of younger women by the older generation of feminists.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/jul/22/topless-bathing-france

Dudess · 06-01-2011 08:48PM

You can "think" it all you like - doesn't mean it's always true.

Ickle, I too separate nudity and sexuality - that's why I find it a bit perplexing that some view those who don't want to bare all as sexually conservative. Public nudity has nowt to do with sex for me - whereas sex is when I very much wanna get nekkid. :pac:
I certainly don't have a problem with breastfeeding in public, and I CERTAINLY don't think children who catch sight of genitals are therefore "abused".
I think there is a culture of crap body confidence in Ireland - and Britain. It does not seem as prevalent in Europe. In better shape overall on the continent? I'd imagine so... Better weather for exercise, better diets, less drinking. But I do think also that there is less "body beautiful" pressure on the continent. We've all encountered those middle-aged Germans who like to wander around naked with their arses down to the backs of their knees. :pac:

Reward · 06-01-2011 08:59PM

A bit from that Guardian article that suggests that its women imposing arbitrary standards on other women..

"A poll found 24% of women were perturbed by toplessness on beaches, while 57% said it was OK in a garden. Along the artificial summer beach Paris Plages, which opened on the Seine this week, topless sunbathing is punishable with a fine. The mayor of Saint Tropez has argued that the postcard myth of the feminine "charms" of the southern elitist sunspot are outdated as fewer women go topless".

Ksusha26 · 06-01-2011 09:05PM

I come from a society where we are alot more open than sexuality than the women here. This also comes to nudity as well. I go to a swimming pool and I often see Irish women taking off their underwear/swimming suit under their towel and going to the shower with their towels on. I have no problem walking around the changing room naked going to and from the shower. I am quite comfortable with being naked in this situation and at my boyfriends place, when I come home from work staying at his place, I often get changed in his bedroom and walk to ensuite shower nude even when if he is there. What is the fuss?

caseyann · 06-01-2011 11:17PM

Ksusha26 wrote: »

I come from a society where we are alot more open than sexuality than the women here. This also comes to nudity as well. I go to a swimming pool and I often see Irish women taking off their underwear/swimming suit under their towel and going to the shower with their towels on. I have no problem walking around the changing room naked going to and from the shower. I am quite comfortable with being naked in this situation and at my boyfriends place, when I come home from work staying at his place, I often get changed in his bedroom and walk to ensuite shower nude even when if he is there. What is the fuss?

Again it is some who do and some who dont,and to want to cover yourself up is no big deal and i dont even get why people are bothered with taLking about it.
No one has a problem with someone getting naked in a changing room of same sex.
And i very much doubt you will find any Irish women who have problem getting naked in their bfs house in front of him.
I dont even know why you brought that up.

Floppybits · 07-01-2011 10:53AM

caseyann wrote: »

Again it is some who do and some who dont,and to want to cover yourself up is no big deal and i dont even get why people are bothered with taLking about it.
No one has a problem with someone getting naked in a changing room of same sex.
And i very much doubt you will find any Irish women who have problem getting naked in their bfs house in front of him.
I dont even know why you brought that up.

Actually Caseyann, you will find that some people both men and women do have a problem with people walking around naked in a changing room of the same sex. I have seen it myself in men's changing rooms especially among younger males where they cant believe that another man would walk around naked, this was also brought up on the infamous thread in the fitness forum "Annoying gym behaviours" where it was again younger males complaining about the middle/old age guys walking to and from the shower naked. Also my female friends say they would never get naked in a female changing room and have looked down on women that do get naked in the changing room. Their attitude is that its not nice and they should cover up or just plain simple jealousy as well.

Speaking as a male who has been in changing rooms of some sort of other most of his life through sports it never has bothered me getting undressed and walking naked to and from the shower and still do. I just think it is strange seeing guys now go for showers in the changing room with their shorts on and showering with their shorts on. I don't know if there has been a change and mostly younger men are now more body concious and therefore they are covering up more. I have also seen the guys doing the towel dance as well.

Reward · 07-01-2011 01:46PM

caseyann wrote: »

Again it is some who do and some who dont,and to want to cover yourself up is no big deal and i dont even get why people are bothered with taLking about it.
No one has a problem with someone getting naked in a changing room of same sex.
And i very much doubt you will find any Irish women who have problem getting naked in their bfs house in front of him.
I dont even know why you brought that up.

Well for example, you yourself said that you would call the authorities if your children saw someone innocently changing down the beach, if you did that and the person was male he would have been potentially exposed to a life destroying procedure, job loss and the rest of his life on a sex offenders register, men have killed themselves over that sort of thing. Its logical enough to assume that people that view innocent nudity as a sex crime that the authorities should be involved in would have inhibitions and issues with nudity and sex in general.

Dudess · 07-01-2011 01:48PM

Reward wrote: »

Well for example, you yourself said that you would call the authorities if your children saw someone innocently changing down the beach

:eek:

parker kent · 07-01-2011 02:13PM

Reward wrote: »

Well for example, you yourself said that you would call the authorities if your children saw someone innocently changing down the beach

This reminds me of this story from Italy. One that proves that opinions on nudity on beaches are not just a topic of debate in Ireland.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/7938948/Mother-reports-topless-sunbather-on-Italian-beach-to-police-for-troubling-sons.html

Mother reports topless sunbather on Italian beach to police for 'troubling' sons
A mother of two boys has sparked a debate in Italy over topless sunbathing after she reported a woman to police because the way she applied suntan lotion was "troubling" her sons.

The 26-year-old woman, identified only as Luisa under Italian privacy laws, was questioned by officers after they were brought to the scene by the mother.

She had initially asked the woman, an assistant in a fashion store, to cover herself up as her ample breasts and the act of rubbing cream on her body had "troubled her sons aged 14 and 12."

The woman, who was sunbathing on a public beach at Anzio south of Rome, refused and so officers were called – much to the amusement of other holidaymakers who looked on as she remonstrated still topless.

The case has triggered a debate in Italy about topless bathing.
Yesterday, the Rome based lawyer, Gianluca Arrighi, said: "Something like this happening in 2010 is absurd. My client was approached and asked to cover up by the woman and she simply asked her what her problem was.

"From there the woman gathered up her children and went and complained to police bring the officers to the scene where Luisa was still on the beach sunbathing.

"The fact a file has been opened is compulsory following the complaint but I can't imagine any judge in 2010 convicting a woman for sunbathing topless.
"Let's be clear my client is tall, brunette and has an ample breast and is therefore going to naturally be sensuous when she applies cream to her chest.

"This may well have attracted the attention of the women's two sons but it should not lead to my client being convicted. She is amazed that she is being condemned for simply sunbathing topless.

"It was a public beach and she could see no harm in what she was doing."
Mr Arrighi said that it was not illegal to sunbathe topless on a public beach, unless there is a local bylaw.

A comment piece in La Repubblica newspaper said: "Summer is the season where everything happens but it is also the time of pathological mentalities ... where was she supposed to apply the cream on her clothes?"

Topless sunbathing has dropped out of fashion in recent years. In both France and Italy far fewer people abandon their bikini tops when on the beach.
Countess Barbara Ronchi della Rocca, the Italian etiquette expert, said: "You do see far fewer topless sunbathers these days than you used to but I think that's because the beach is no longer the place where you go to get a tan.
"Nowadays people arrive bronzed already having spent the winter in tanning salons and they spend their time at the beach bar semi clothed and socialising instead."

Yesterday a police spokesman in Anzio said: "A patrol was stopped by a mother of two sons who was angry at a topless sunbather and the way she was applying suntan cream.

"She told us that she had asked the woman to cover herself up because her young sons aged 12 and 14, had been admiring the sunbather and they had been troubled by what she was doing.

"The patrol went and took her details and she argued, still topless, that she could so no harm in what she was doing as it was a public beach. We have opened a file on committing an obscene act as we are committed to following the complaint. From what I heard she was very attractive."

Are Irish women too prudish around other women?

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