Officially Dublin has the highest rate of gun murder in Europe in 2009

Manic Moran · 12-11-2009 04:25PM

i thought they all used colt 45's and other cheap weaponry

1911s are not the cheapest of firearms to buy, especially those by other manufacturers. (Check out the price of a Kimber or Para-Ordnance which are uprated versions of the same gun)

It's certainly cheaper to buy something like a Glock, or if you're going used, a cheap Smith and Wesson or some such.

NTM

Liam Byrne · 12-11-2009 05:07PM

snyper wrote: »

Limerick is tiny in comparsion to dublin. AFAIK Talllaght is bigger than Limerick City.. Im not sure what point im trying to make, but you cant compare the two.

The statistics are "per head of population", so ACTUAL sizes don't come into it.

The point topper75 was making is that statistics "per head of population" usually seem to take the population of an area as "the city", while the crime stats are usually for the "greater metropolitan area" or an equivalent.

Someone posted here earlier that the Limerick City population is 50,000; apart from the fact that it's something like 70,000, the city + suburbs are something like 125,000 because most of the suburbs are in Co. Limerick or Co. Clare.

So a shocking statistic - for either Dublin or Limerick - of, say "1 in 10 people affected by crime" can easily be halved by using the proper figures.

That said, actual shocking absolute figures like 19 murders doesn't come into that; it's still 19 people dead.

Although personally, in order to been objective and fair, I'd do the same as I asked people to do when the media made it look like Limerick was dangerous......how many of those 19 were "normal people" - non scumbag drug-gang members ?

Because - as I've been arguing in relation to my own fine city - they're the real victims and they're the ones who are representative of how "dangerous" a city really is to an average person.

One is still too many, but you need to know how safe you are if you come into a city to visit; not selling drugs or committing crimes.

citizen_p · 12-11-2009 05:25PM

nobody cares when the gangs are killing eachother. its only when a civilian joe soap is killed by them that somthing happens

El Weirdo · 12-11-2009 06:12PM

Palmerstown_guy wrote: »

...and remember stop sniffing coke in clubs and pubs for starters, hipsters - you're feeding the scumbags!

*calls Frank.

Nodin · 12-11-2009 06:23PM

Kipperhell wrote: »

Guns are traditionally part of the shipment, the RA took the guns as part payment to permit dealing and other activities. Anybody got too big the Ra would sort them out. The dealers didn't have the big wars because the Ra would sort them both out.

They policed organised crime by being part of it and setting limits. Well established knowledge on how they generated money. They left a vacuum, effectively creating a power struggle within organised crime.

In your dimension perhaps, not in this one.

Chucky the tree · 12-11-2009 06:30PM

dr.bollocko wrote: »

I never said guns.

I was referring to the OP.

patneve · 12-11-2009 07:53PM

Naples, Italy (population of 1 million people) and environs has had 59 gun deaths so far this year; 4,126 deaths since 1980...Dublin is paradise comparing it to where I'm from :cool:

Palmerstown_guy · 12-11-2009 08:51PM

Again, we are back to comparing numbers? Lets stay real what's happening in our city.

19 murders, they are telling me thats the highest number of murders in Dublin in the last 50 years. Scary feckin shiite.

Feck these scumbags for turning Dublin into a gangland.

All we need is another Veronica Guerin massacre to top it off.

AckwelFoley · 12-11-2009 09:24PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So a shocking statistic - for either Dublin or Limerick - of, say "1 in 10 people affected by crime" can easily be halved by using the proper figures.

That said, actual shocking absolute figures like 19 murders doesn't come into that; it's still 19 people dead.
...how many of those 19 were "normal people" - non scumbag drug-gang members
.

Very very few are "non scumbag" however that comes as little comfort to the families of Brian Fitzgerald, Shane Geoghegan and Roy Collins.

I dont believe Limerick has a higher % per capita of Skangers than any other town / city in Ireland, they are suprisingy few "major players" in the Limerick gangland culture, its their actions and the severity of their actions that make it look so bad.

Liam Byrne · 12-11-2009 09:32PM

snyper wrote: »

Very very few [clarification : of the victims] are "non scumbag" however that comes as little comfort to the families of Brian Fitzgerald, Shane Geoghegan and Roy Collins.

Agreed 100%. Don't get me wrong. I've said before that one innocent death is one too many.

What I was attempting to do is distinguish between the attention-grabbing headline and the actual danger level for the public in Dublin, something I wish the media had done in our case and something that I thought might show how this SHOULD be viewed by people (whatever city it relates to).

And I was genuinely curious as to how many of the 19 were innocent people.

But I'm with you all the way; while I'd love if all the scumbags and thugs and skangers shot each other to bits and we shot the last man standing, even one innocent victim is still a huge loss.

AckwelFoley · 12-11-2009 10:02PM

Irelands Crime Capitals: Dublin

On TV3 now

Edit: Never mind.. its more about the dublin riots.. The 2 been interviewed as rioters are a yank and some culchie... lol

Sir Oxman · 12-11-2009 10:12PM

this place is surely the worlds #1 though...

"Ciudad Juarez has had 1,986 homicides through mid-October this year — averaging seven a day in the city of 1.5 million people"

baalthor · 13-11-2009 12:45AM

I read this article on Sunday but didn't pay it too much attention. Still, the claim that Dublin has a higher gun murder rate than Washington DC did catch my eye.
After all, DC has been regarded as the crime capital of the US for many years so if we are competitive with them, then we do have a serious problem!

But is the claim true? In a word NO, in a bigger word it's BULL****!

But how did Ali Bracken (the author of the article) come up with her bull**** statistic?

Bracken gave the following stats:
Dublin 2009: 19 gun murders in pop of 1.2m = gun-murder rate(per 100,000) of 1.58

DC 2009: 91 gun murders in population of 6m = gun-murder rate(per 100,000) of 1.52

So Dublin is more dangerous than DC !!!

(This was also shown on a large graph in the printed edition, also she used per million rather than per 100,000)

How do I know that her stats are BS?

First I looked at the FBI murder data for 2008

These show that the City of Washington DC had 186 murders in a population of 591,833, giving a murder rate of 31.4 - WOW- just a bit higher than Dublin!

They also show that the much larger DC Metro area (pop 5.3m) had 401 murders giving a lower rate of 7.5 - better than DC but still far higher than Dublin.
Of course this is because the metro area covers the DC City area (scary) plus leafy suburbs and other cities (not so scary).

Bracken's stats are for 2009 though, so I visited the DC Police website where we see that there have been 125 murders so far this year.
However the article is about gun killings and 91 is probably the right figure.
This is because guns are used in around 72% of murders in the DC region so 72% of 125 gives 91.

OK, the next step is the clever/stupid one from Bracken.
It's pretty clear from the website that the DC Police stats are for the DC City area only (i.e population of just over half a million). The much larger metro area has separate police forces and as we've seen, its own separate murders.

But what Ali seems to have done is to first round up the metro population to 6m and then divide it into the city area murder rate.
She divided 91 by 6,000,000 instead of the correct figure (591,833)
This of course is statistical nonsense and produces a murder rate for Washington DC that's ten times smaller than reality.

So that's how you prove that Dublin's gun murder rate is "worse than Washington" !

Liam Byrne · 13-11-2009 12:54AM

baalthor wrote: »

So that's how you prove that Dublin's gun murder rate is "worse than Washington" !

As I said earlier, this is the type of "reporting" that's been going on for years.

Can I ask if you looked into the figures as in as much detail when you'd have seen an equivalent headline about elsewhere in the past ?

Because I can tell you that most people don't bother, which is why bull**** headlines and skewed stats are so damaging. And people who point out the facts - like you've done above - are generally ridiculed as being "over-sensitive". I know this first-hand.

If this headline does nothing else other than to make people think twice about believing half the crap they read, and choosing to diss a whole city as a result, then it will at least have achieved something good.

As the OP said, though, 19 is still 19, and even if the "newspapers" cop themselves on and start reporting facts for a change, something still needs to be done to prevent that 19 - or even 1 of those 19 - recurring in the future.

baalthor · 13-11-2009 01:43AM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

As I said earlier, this is the type of "reporting" that's been going on for years.

Can I ask if you looked into the figures as in as much detail when you'd have seen an equivalent headline about elsewhere in the past ?

Because I can tell you that most people don't bother, which is why bull**** headlines and skewed stats are so damaging. And people who point out the facts - like you've done above - are generally ridiculed as being "over-sensitive". I know this first-hand.

If this headline does nothing else other than to make people think twice about believing half the crap they read, and choosing to diss a whole city as a result, then it will at least have achieved something good.

As the OP said, though, 19 is still 19, and even if the "newspapers" cop themselves on and start reporting facts for a change, something still needs to be done to prevent that 19 - or even 1 of those 19 - recurring in the future.

I've made a comment about the article on the Tribune website - whether it will have any effect ....

tommyboy2222 · 13-11-2009 03:37AM

thats how we roll mutha****a

Pdfile · 13-11-2009 07:55AM

tommyboy2222 wrote: »

thats how we roll mutha****a

true that mayne, people gettin shot up over nothin mayne.

cause real men need weapons :rolleyes:

Palmerstown_guy · 13-11-2009 08:48AM

I hate this cop out "let them shoot each other" bullcrap.

I don't want to live in a gangland murder city...or rear my children... if nothing is done about it. It's sick. I want ot see action from our government!

Do you want to live in a Dublin where murders routinely happen? No.

19 dead bodies... takes the biscuit...it's affects all society. The botton line is there is a DEMAND for drugs in the city of Dublin...and these gangs rule that trade and will sickly murder anyone who gets in their way.

As I mentioned are we waiting for another Veronica Guerin to get assassinated to wake up Ireland up to the truth?

My name is URL · 13-11-2009 05:40PM

Palmerstown_guy wrote: »

I don't want to live in a gangland murder city...or rear my children... if nothing is done about it. It's sick. I want ot see action from our government!

Do you want to live in a Dublin where murders routinely happen? No.

19 dead bodies... takes the biscuit...it's affects all society. The botton line is there is a DEMAND for drugs in the city of Dublin...and these gangs rule that trade and will sickly murder anyone who gets in their way.

.

star.chaser · 17-11-2009 01:20PM

urban muck savages

You Suck! · 17-11-2009 04:44PM

Maybe if there was less dogshit on the ground, people wouldn't be so inclined to shoot each other.......go wan dublin!

star.chaser · 17-11-2009 08:48PM

I know we have a lot of successful hits in Ireland but the Irish scumbags are amateurs and small fish when compared to mainland european gangs.
Take for example the 2nd in command in the italian mafia who was recently caught who had the 7 year old son of someone that grassed on him disolved in acid. Or what about the vesties, shane coat and steven slugg who went over to spain throwing their weight around. two oirish men trying to take on europe and ended up embedded in the foundation of a hotel. go on ya good thing! stick to the joy bleedin ridin

Palmerstown_guy · 17-11-2009 09:08PM

So, starchaser, its a case of whose better, is it?

Do you have any proof on those far fetched stories.

lightening · 17-11-2009 09:23PM

Palmerstown_guy wrote: »

So, starchaser, its a case of whose better, is it?

Do you have any proof on those far fetched stories.

Ah, in fairness the Italian mafia have a bad name!

star.chaser · 17-11-2009 10:50PM

this one is in the news the last few days:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8361661.stm

you must be very young if you don't remember the vesties from west dublin. it was about five year ago:

http://www.independent.ie/topics/Shane+Coates

Nichololas · 17-11-2009 10:51PM

wudangclan wrote: »

perhaps legalise the industry in which most of these gangsters are employed in order to remove both the financial incentive for gang membership and funds for supplies of weapons?

Yeah but first they'd need to learn to run a legitimate business uh file-paperwork read.

They're not gangsters because cocaine/heroin is illegal, they're gangsters because they're gangsters (socio-economic reasons aside) - if chewing gum were made illegal then they'd be smuggling it through the docks and chiseling it off the pavement to sell in no time (actually that mightn't be a bad idea).

wudangclan · 17-11-2009 10:53PM

Enlil_Nick wrote: »

Yeah but first they'd need to learn to run a legitimate business uh file-paperwork read.

They're not gangsters because cocaine/heroin is illegal, they're gangsters because they're gangsters (socio-economic reasons aside) - if chewing gum were made illegal then they'd be smuggling it through the docks and chiseling it off the pavement to sell in no time (actually that mightn't be a bad idea).

But the size of the market and the rewards involved draw in people who otherwise never have become involved in crime.Drugs users invariably become ensnared in the business when,had the business been legal,they too would never have become criminals.

Palmerstown_guy · 18-11-2009 09:11AM

"But the size of the market and the rewards involved draw in people who otherwise never have become involved in crime"

Anyone know the size of the market? It must be huge in Dublin city.

Joe Public must be held responsible too for keeping the demand high. They supply, "we" demand ...and then they murder.

enda1 · 18-11-2009 09:18AM

Does it really matter how people are murdered?

A more relevant statistic would be just murder numbers. Anyone got any up to date stats on that?

wudangclan · 18-11-2009 09:52AM

Palmerstown_guy wrote: »

"But the size of the market and the rewards involved draw in people who otherwise never have become involved in crime"

Anyone know the size of the market? It must be huge in Dublin city.

Joe Public must be held responsible too for keeping the demand high. They supply, "we" demand ...and then they murder.

The last estimate I saw,last year, was 1/2 billion euros (countrywide) per annum.I presume that's reduced somewhat with the recession.

Officially Dublin has the highest rate of gun murder in Europe in 2009

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